fixed TEL Radar mode inoperable?

[Tiromir]

Hey guys,

  I just hopped on with  a fellow F1 enthusiast to try out today's patch. We had no success on any TL or BZ locks, which we tried between 2 and 5 nm, targets contrasting against the sun, even though we've both gotten hundreds of such successful locks in the past.

 I think any radar misoperations can be discounted given that both our separate radars were on, with targets square in the HUD.

Has anyone been able to get it working?

[Roostyla]

Same experience here, something has changed in the logic or there is a bug. It's not locking how it use to pre-patch.

[bramimond]

Also reporting this issue, there's a really small window that TEL could lock. It would flash like it was attempting a lock at most ranges but couldn't achieve the lock outside of this very specific "range" 

I will provide a track file but, right now it seems like the Radar is desperately trying to lock a target in TEL and the target is rapnullidly flashing in the Radar display, and it just wont lock. 

in the red circle you can see the target entering my "range" in the first picture, and then in the Second, it hits the vertical line, and that's when I usually achieve lock. Shown in the third picture is the successful lock achieved in TEL mode. null

It's extremely inconsistent. Sometimes it works, other times it won't lock at all. if you're too close, you'll see the target constantly flashing on your radar scope but never achieve a lock

I might create a track and submit another report. 

[Vibora]

Please provide a short trk recorded in Caucasus. Thank you.

[EasternEagle]

I knew it wasnt just me being crazy, I had multiple flights where it would work and then not work it was indeed very interesting and also even if I got a lock there was a significant delay between my S530.F's seeing the target and being fireable.

[MicMic]

Same as bramimond. I attach a cMirage F1 CAUCASO.trkouple of tracks, in Caucasus and Persian Gulf. Please check if it is a normal behaviour.

Mirage F1 GP.trk

[Tiromir]

18 hours ago, Vibora said:

Please provide a short trk recorded in Caucasus. Thank you.

Hi Vibora,

I've just taken her up to test this out, here are the tracks. Target was always an IL-78, plenty of radar returns to be seen.

F1ACMModesChase.trkFirst, Ideal conditions for a pulse radar with no doppler which I believe is what the F1's Cyrano IV is, on the 6 of the IL-78 at 5000m. I have achieved a lock, but only within around 3.5nm of target, halfway down the 7nm display, despite the manual's description (p.108)stating automatic lock from 7nm and the Ilyushin's radar brick being clearly visible on the cockpit display. Locking is reliable within this 3.5, but impossible out of them. Once too close, i manoevre to get some range and try again.

F1ACMModesHeadOn.trkSecond, even better conditions: same aircraft and altitude, but head on. Same conclusion: No lock until 3.5nm, then lock.

 F1ACMModesLowAlt.trkThird, at low altitude. First in a head on,  then a chase. I manually lock the target to gain visual, then try to lock in the head on pass. Despite the radar display showing the target, i thought it could be reasonable to assume you guys implemeted some limitations in such extreme look-down cases. So I turn around to chase and give it more attempts, to no avail, whether I get a couple miles of separation or i'm basically point blank, whether i'm making the radar look down which may lose the target in ground clutter or looking at this behemoth of a plane against nothing but clear sky.

I'm certain the the radar as currently modelled is capable of acquiring a lock in all these situations, as I occasionally show by locking the target manually in HA mode. Moreover, the target's return brick is, in each of these cases, visible on the display itself (as highlighted by @bramimond). I'd therefore expect it to get locked just fine.

 

It also seems i'm unable to break lock using the "telemeter/zo ne scanning switch - CENTER (OFF)" input, which previously was my go-to to abort a radar lock.

Thank you for your work.

Edited October 2 by Tiromir

[Kerosene]

@ Tiromir Thanks for your tracks, they illustrate the problem perfectly.

The lock is effective only when the Alidade (strobe) is near the IL78 radar spot in 30° scanning when you switch to TL mode.

I redid the test by moving the Alidade (strobe) control vertically in TL mode and this causes the lock.

 

@ vibora Could you confirm this mode of operation?

It does not seem consistent to have to place the Alidade (strobe) on the contact before switching to TL mode or to have to move this allidade when you are in TL mode.

 

Thank you for this very beautiful Mirage F1 which delights us with each flight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vibora]

Thank you for the trks. After watching them, we've identified the issue.

Recently we’ve added a condition for acquisition mode, in which a target is not attempted to be locked if it is at more than 1.5 km away from the strobe current position. This condition, that reflects real behavior, was intended for manual acquisition (when there’s an attempt to get a target locked from normal search mode). And, due to a bug in the code, the same condition was applied to automatic acquisition modes, where the strobe is actually almost 7 km (6600 meters) long and where this condition should not be a factor.

It is already fixed internally.

BTW, the range for automatic acquisition modes is from 400m to 7Km, not 7 NM, and this is correctly described in our manual (page 108), as you mentioned.

Also, not breaking lock using the "telemeter/zo ne scanning switch - CENTER (OFF)" input, is a correct behavior. The lock is retained when switching to/from an auto acquisition mode. To break lock you should press the unlock button (“Backspace”).

Again, thank you all for your reports and compliments! Specially Tiromir and Kerosene, you’ve been fast catching it!

Edited October 2 by Vibora

[Tiromir]

35 minutes ago, Vibora said:

Thank you for the trks. After watching them, we've identified the issue.

Recently we’ve added a condition for acquisition mode, in which a target is not attempted to be locked if it is at more than 1.5 km away from the strobe current position. This condition, that reflects real behavior, was intended for manual acquisition (when there’s an attempt to get a target locked from normal search mode). And, due to a bug in the code, the same condition was applied to automatic acquisition modes, where the strobe is actually almost 7 km (6600 meters) long and where this condition should not be a factor.

It is already fixed internally.

BTW, the range for automatic acquisition modes is from 400m to 7Km, not 7 NM, and this is correctly described in our manual (page 108), as you mentioned.

Great! I'm happy this was so quick to figure out. All that's left now is to cross our fingers and hope the delay till next update is shorter than the delay since the previous one, but I guess we'll just have to improve our gunnery and learn not to rely on the radar so much!

37 minutes ago, Vibora said:

BTW, the range for automatic acquisition modes is from 400m to 7Km, not 7 NM, and this is correctly described in our manual (page 108), as you mentioned.

Also, breaking lock using the "telemeter/zo ne scanning switch - CENTER (OFF)" input, is a correct behavior. The lock is retained when switching to/from an auto acquisition mode. To break lock you should press the unlock button (“Backspace”).

Again, thank you all for your reports and compliments! Specially Tiromir and Kerosene, you’ve been fast catching it!

I assume you mean not breaking the lock with "telemeter/zo ne scanning switch - CENTER (OFF)" is correct behaviour. I'll be binding "unlock" then.

Sorry for the confusion over the radar ranges, mixed units are a challenge we're all facing

Thank you for your quick reaction time and letting us know exactly how we could help you. Have a good one!

4 hours ago, Kerosene said:

@ Tiromir Thanks for your tracks, they illustrate the problem perfectly.

The lock is effective only when the Alidade (strobe) is near the IL78 radar spot in 30° scanning when you switch to TL mode.

I redid the test by moving the Alidade (strobe) control vertically in TL mode and this causes the lock.

 

@ vibora Could you confirm this mode of operation?

It does not seem consistent to have to place the Alidade (strobe) on the contact before switching to TL mode or to have to move this allidade when you are in TL mode.

 

Thank you for this very beautiful Mirage F1 which delights us with each flight.

Nice catch!

If i'm understanding you right, I guess that placing the Alidade ahead and more or less at the expected range should result in a correct lock with ACM modes? That would mean we have a way around the problem until the fix gets released to us through the next DCS patch.

 

[Kerosene]

Exactly.

If the Alidade (strobe) position is too far from the spot and the lock is not done in TL you can also move the alidade to cause the lock.

[Vibora]

5 hours ago, Tiromir said:

I assume you mean not breaking the lock with "telemeter/zo ne scanning switch - CENTER (OFF)" is correct behaviour. I'll be binding "unlock" then.

Right, edited my post.

[bramimond]

I apologize in the delay between my post and providing tracks but it looks like people have beat me to it! Glad to see it as caught. I will post my Tracks as supplemental data regardless, but as mentioned, you can lock it in that 1.5-3.5nm sweet spot. Below that, it is impossible to acquire the target, and above that (as intended) it is also impossible to acquire the target. It being 400m-7km definitely means the range is a little bit wonky right now. 

But seeing as you've already fixed it, I'm glad to hear we'll be seeing the change sometime soon! I suppose it's up to ED to put out another patch beyond the F10 Crash hotfix, for any other minor issues that launched with the update. Thank you for your work. 

Mirage F1 TEL test 1.trk Mirage F1 TEL test 2.trk

[BonerCat]

I've got nothing to add to the bug report, just wanna post to appreciate the fast and informative response
honestly setting a golden standard here for handling bugs
you love to see it C;

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

7 hours ago, bramimond said:

for any other minor issues that launched with the update.

ED doesn’t do that: they only release hotfixes for game breaking bugs - aka stuff that can actually crash the game or make it impossibly to fly a certain module.

Sadly we’ll have to wait 6 weeks or so for the next major patch

[Kerosene]

The bug is fixed.

Thank you Aerges.