Russian Pantsir-S1 -- best air defence money can buy

[morsmortis]

Just use a JSTOW. Probem Solved.

[Pilotasso]

No proof.

Also, small detection radius means that the radar is detectable at small radius. At 40 km HARM will not burn the entire charge and will be detectable by EOS.

 

Wrong...A passive device will pick up any radar signal long before the emmiter detects the aircraft. That Pants-IR truck will probably be fired upon before seeing the launcher on the scope. This SAM system is adequate for tank batalion protection against CAS aircraft. It will lack badly in face of a fast jet flyigh at medium altitude with stand off weapons. You got other systems to face that challenge.

 

 

Anyone who knows what do two-stage missiles differ from one-stage by.

 

Having more than one stage does not compensate for smaler size. Its not meant for that. Its rather meant to provide the missile with 2 types of boost. Something many other missiles do on a single piece.

[GGTharos]

Pilotasso, it can do that range, though like any weapon, at that range performance will suffer.

 

@DarkWanderer - AFAIK the EOS is a secondary tracking, not detection system. And that is a big deal.

 

There's no doubt that Pantsir has some anti-missile capability - so much so in fact it can be used against ASMs. But it isn't a real anti-missile system. It's primary job is to shoot down aircraft.

[DarkWanderer]

Wrong...A passive device will pick up any radar signal long before the emmiter detects the aircraft.

A Shilka radar can't be picked at 100km. Not even by alien/USA ECM. So is for Pantsir. NO craft will be able to detect, as well as attack, a short-ranged radar outside ~3 times its detection range.

 

Pants-IR

So much for objectivity.

 

Having more than one stage does not compensate for smaler size. Its not meant for that. Its rather meant to provide the missile with 2 types of boost. Something many other missiles do on a single piece.

A time ago GGTharos was talking that larger missile has more drag ;) Or does this apply to russian missiles only when it hurts...?

The whole point of having 2 stages is having more speed and range at once. Argue to Tsiolkovsky on that.

 

@DarkWanderer - AFAIK the EOS is a secondary tracking, not detection system. And that is a big deal.

Just estimate the RCS of a HARM at 4/4 aspect.

 

Also:

The system itself may react in 4-6 sec, but you have a missile launch delay, you have a minimum range zone, etc etc. This also assumes ideal conditions, so for example, no jamming, EMI, or other distractions.

You're counting all of that twice. System reaction time from detection to launch is 4-6 seconds. Period.

 

HARM velocity is 600m/s. Detection range (assuming RCS of 0.1sq.m) is around 3 km. That is, we have 5 seconds to react even in worst case of self defence - and if the guns are pointed right, the missile stands no chance. And guns do not need significant minimal range.

Edited June 4, 2009 by DarkWanderer

[Groove]

That is, we have 5 seconds to react even in worst case of self defence - and if the guns are pointed right, the missile stands no chance.

 

Is that "no chance" a effectivity ratio of 100% ?

[GGTharos]

A Shilka radar can't be picked at 100km. Not even by alien/USA ECM. So is for Pantsir. NO craft will be able to detect, as well as attack, a short-ranged radar outside ~3 times its detection range.

 

RIVET JOINT/F-22 FTW!!!!

 

Sorry, I just had to ;)

 

A time ago GGTharos was talking that larger missile has more drag ;) Or does this apply to russian missiles only when it hurts...?

The whole point of having 2 stages is having more speed and range at once. Argue to Tsiolkovsky on that.

 

I already ran the numbers and I have no doubt that this missile can reach 20km effective range. Barely, but it can.

 

Just estimate the RCS of a HARM at 4/4 aspect.

 

I forget how the aspect description works in this case - I just worked with a head-on AMRAAM.

 

Also:

 

You're counting all of that twice. System reaction time from detection to launch is 4-6 seconds. Period.

 

I find that highly unlikely, but I've been wrong before - detection requires its own amount of processing time, and then you have reaction.

 

 

HARM velocity is 600m/s. Detection range (assuming RCS of 0.1sq.m) is around 3 km. That is, we have 5 seconds to react even in worst case of self defence - and if the guns are pointed right, the missile stands no chance. And guns do not need significant minimal range.

 

 

I suspect HARM is around 0.3-0.5 cm^2, in which case it is detectable a little beyond 9km by radar and trackable at 7 or a little more.

 

As for guns, once the missile is quite close you're hosed. Even if the guns hit it you'll take high speed shrapnel/debris damage - so there really IS a minimum effective range - but this is a digression.

 

I still think the most effective way to attack a tactical weapon is to see it separate from the carrier. Otherwise you're in big trouble - in short, I think Pantsir can deal with incoming munitions, if we're not talking about a single or very widely spaced in time munitions, and if those are the ONLY targets it has available.

 

Once you have more than that target, it's highly unlikely the thing will be engaging tactical missiles.

[DarkWanderer]

Is that "no chance" a effectivity ratio of 100% ?

95% is still named "won't stand a chance".

 

I find that highly unlikely, but I've been wrong before - detection requires its own amount of processing time, and then you have reaction.

How big is detection time for PESA radars? About a second, I guess. Nothing game-changing.

 

I suspect HARM is around 0.3-0.5 cm^2, in which case it is detectable a little beyond 9km by radar and trackable at 7 or a little more.

Did you mean 0.03-0.05m^2?..

It's hull is 0.3m wide and the wings are metallic without any stealth measures. It's surely more than 0.03m^2. And this, again, in worst (for SAM) case I'm taking. Even 5km range gives 8 seconds for reaction - and in reality it will be more.

 

I still think the most effective way to attack a tactical weapon is to see it separate from the carrier. Otherwise you're in big trouble - in short, I think Pantsir can deal with incoming munitions, if we're not talking about a single or very widely spaced in time munitions, and if those are the ONLY targets it has available.

Should I understand that as you've abandoned your original position "OMGWTF the HARM will fry it"?

 

Of course we're talking about ideal conditions. But that's what you always do.

Edited June 4, 2009 by DarkWanderer

[EtherealN]

Did you mean 0.03-0.05m^2?..

It's hull is 0.3m wide and the wings are metallic without any stealth measures. It's surely more than 0.03m^2.

 

Question - wouldn't the fact that it does not reflect fully diminish the signature from it's diameter? And is the effect of the fins (when head-on or almost head-on) really drastic enough to improve detection and tracking chances dramatically?

 

Carefully framed as questions as, well, they are. :P

[DarkWanderer]

Question - wouldn't the fact that it does not reflect fully diminish the signature from it's diameter? And is the effect of the fins (when head-on or almost head-on) really drastic enough to improve detection and tracking chances dramatically?

Fair questions. Though:

1.I've taken into account signal absorption/deflection. If computed directly, the reflective area would be 0.0625m^2 without wings.

2.Reflection effect for metals depends not on area, but on linear size. Chaff are long and thin pieces of foil, but the RCS of a charge is much more than the sum of their area.

[EtherealN]

2.Reflection effect for metals depends not on area, but on linear size. Chaff are long and thin pieces of foil, but the RCS of a capluse is much more than the sum of their area.

 

Doh! Of course... I should have made the chaff connection and it would have made sense right away. Cheers for the answers.

[GGTharos]

How big is detection time for PESA radars? About a second, I guess. Nothing game-changing.

 

That isn't right. Even Patriot in self-defense/automatic mode requires some amount of tracking time to determine if the track is not spurious. Unless you're willing to risk shooting missiles at something ...

 

 

Did you mean 0.03-0.05m^2?..

 

Yes, but I'm not sure it should be that low - based on body width of HARM alone I think it's closer to 0.1m^2 at minimum - non-stealthy cruise missiles seem to listed at 0.9m^2

 

Even 5km range gives 8 seconds for reaction - and in reality it will be more.

 

No, 5km is a lot of time if you are already tracking. The closer the missile is to you when you start shooting, the worse your chances are.

 

Should I understand that as you've abandoned your original position "OMGWTF the HARM will fry it"?

 

HARM will fry it in any real combat environment where the little ARM isn't the only target to worry about. Unless I'm mistaken, my original position was 'Panstir isn't a great anti-missile system' ;)

 

Of course we're talking about ideal conditions. But that's what you always do.

 

Nah, not always. I'm pretty certain I've mentioned imperfect conditions before.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

10 F-16?!! = 10 dead pant-sir trucks.

You wish ... You remember NATO brought arround 1200 aircraft over Yugoslavia? I wonder why, when it was enough to have one F-16 for one SAM? Have you read A-10 Over Kosovo?

[Pilotasso]

Bad comparison. SA-2 and 3's are designed for very different purposes and face very different challenges than the Pants-IR.

 

NATO aircraft were flying high above SA-3 bateries reach wich BTW have longer range.

Weather and topography was bad for hiting them with LGB's and SAM operators kept shutting the radars down. So while few bateries were trashed, these also kept silent for avoiding taking a HARM through their heads. Knowing Anti radiation missiles were being carried by NATO aircraft disrupted their operations.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Pilotasso

[Pilotasso]

A Shilka radar can't be picked at 100km. Not even by alien/USA ECM. So is for Pantsir. NO craft will be able to detect, as well as attack, a short-ranged radar outside ~3 times its detection range.

 

 

:huh: Of course you are kinding...shilka at 100Km... Im talking about real search and tracking radars, not low power pin point defense stuff wich would be waste of a HARM.

[Boberro]

LMAO :D oh sorry for OT but I couldn't resist :D

[DarkWanderer]

:huh: Of course you are kinding...shilka at 100Km... Im talking about real search and tracking radars, not low power pin point defense stuff wich would be waste of a HARM.

What range should a radar have against a 2m^2 target to be considered "unreal"?..

[GGTharos]

Woah, where did the conversation turn to now? ... does the Shilka even have a search radar? I might be recalling wrong, but I thought it just had a ranging radar which makes HARMs useless against it. Or am I thinking Vulcan here :P

[nscode]

...and face very different challenges than the Pants-IR.

 

 

No infra red pants in a Pantsir. It means body armour ;)

[DarkWanderer]

Yes, but I'm not sure it should be that low - based on body width of HARM alone I think it's closer to 0.1m^2 at minimum - non-stealthy cruise missiles seem to listed at 0.9m^2

You wrote 0.3-0.5 cm^2. That's obvious nonsense.

 

Woah, where did the conversation turn to now? ... does the Shilka even have a search radar? I might be recalling wrong, but I thought it just had a ranging radar which makes HARMs useless against it. Or am I thinking Vulcan here :P

So, NATO RWRs can't detect radars in lock mode?..

 

Whatever you tell, "reaction time" is the time from a moment of target entering the valid engagement envelope to a moment of launch. In russian standarts, at least. So you're plainly wrong.

[GGTharos]

No, I was thinking of the wrong radar operation - it appears that Shilka does use a STR radar, which could be fired upon if detected at the right time - I suspect however they might keep it silent until it is almost time to fire. At this point trying to launch a HARM is nearly useless IMHO.

[nscode]

Aren't there HARM auto launch modes? Or are those fairy tails..

[GGTharos]

There exists a 'self protect' mode which automatically chooses the highest threat to attack, and brings the HARM display up interrupting other things so you can launch it right away. You still have to push the button. I believe the average velocity of the guns is quite a bit higher than the average velocity of that incoming HARM :D

 

Also I don't know how tight a turn a HARM is capable of pulling ... at the point where a Shilka's opening or about to open fire on you you might be at or inside Rmin.

[Maximus_G]

Unless I'm mistaken, my original position was 'Panstir isn't a great anti-missile system' ;)

 

That's a normal position.

But well, UAE have shown a slightly different attitude towards Pantsir. They proved to be a very loyal customer, patiently waiting for years till all the troubles of this system are solved. And that's the country with a really wide choice.

[GGTharos]

I don't see a problem with Pantsir in its primary role: SHORAD.

[LaRata]

_ 1000 Harm`s and 100 Alarm , was Firing at Serbia Air Defences In 78 days of Kosovo Air WAR. AFM Magazine 1999.

 

_ 1 x Harm Fired By F-16 , Destroy 1 x Patriot Defence System in the final days of 2003 Iraq War. Friendly Fire ...

 

_ Is the Pantsir was defeated by the Harm Missiles is not to be a great surprise.