Is triple monitor better than VR?

[brettt777]

I have played DCS in VR many times, but I have never tried it with the triple monitor setup. I am wondering if all of you that maybe have tried both have a preference and why? My problem is this; I am wanting to invest in the Winwing triple MFD/HUD/UFC setup to go with my Winwing HOTAS. But I am concerned about how to do the display/s with that particular setup. 

Any ideas, comments, snide remarks? 

[=475FG= Dawger]

VR is the closest thing to real flying I have ever experienced. I have noticed that folks who actually fly or used to feel this way and would not consider non VR virtual flight. 
 

Those with no real world experience to compare with are more inclined to be indifferent. 
 

VR is extra work and without that constant impression that you are actually inside the aircraft, the extra work may not seem worth it. 
 

YMMV

[Mr_sukebe]

It's really a question of personal preference.

Most people who've used VR seem to prefer it, but there is a number of people who seem to have gone back to monitors.

My current understanding:

Monitors:

• Easier to drive, though I'm guessing that x3 4k monitors is going to require something quite beefy
• No need to wear/use a VR headset.  For some, it's clearly not viable, or they just hate the comfort
• My assumption is less maintenance and tweaking

VR:

• Cheaper if you go with say an Oculus 3 when compared to x3 decent monitors
• IMMERSION!!!!! 

As for using MFD panels whilst in VR, clearly, you're not going to be able to read them.  There is new "passthrough" tech, which is getting better, but I get the impression that it's not really fully ready, and unless you're cockpit fully reflects the aircraft you're flying, I could see it being very confusing.

For controls, that's a different matter.  I've found that I've built up muscle memory pretty quickly on how to find the right button, switch and dial whilst in VR.

To help on that a few things have helped:

• Some control panels (e.g. the WinWing units) have different switch types, which make it dead easy to feel the difference.  Take a scan at the their Takeoff panel as an example
• You can buy add on silicon covers to go over the type of metal switches, to help pick out specific switches.  I recently bought a bunch of 10 from Virpil for that purpose.  You don't need them on every switch, just the ones to give you an understanding of where a specific known button is
• For buttons on say the Thrustmaster MFDs, I've added a small cut of velcro to 4 of the buttons, such that I can identify them by feel.  I applied the fuzzy side to the middle button on each of the sides, and the sharper velcro side to the middle button  on the top and bottom rows.  Works a treat

 

[Lace]

'Better' is very much subjective and there is no right or wrong answer here.  

I do all my flying in VR.  I have a half sim-pit, with MFDs and a Viper ICP, all of which I can use with muscle memory and a bit of careful prodding.  I know I am compromising some performance and visual fidelity for immersion, and that's fine with me.  The one big disadvantage of VR IMHO is the inability to quickly look at briefing docs/manuals/kneeboards etc.  I know there are some mods and PDF readers etc, but they are a bit clunky and certainly not as convenient as simply glancing at a printout or iPad as you would with a single or multi-monitor setup.

If I was exclusively doing civvy flying, then I would consider a three-monitor setup, but for more dynamic combat flying, then there is no way I would abandon VR, unless it was for some kind of 360 projection full-motion simpit, which is just not feasible for me.

[PLUTON]

My personal experience:
for several years I flew with 1 or 3 screens
and one day I made the big leap to virtual reality
and there I knew what it was like to fly inside a cockpit
on the other hand even with 3 screens OK you will have the 180° view
but you will still be in 2D and the feeling of being inside the cockpit will fly away.
now it's my opinion, see with other VR pilots.
But the main thing is to fly in DCS as you feel best.
Have a good flight

[diego999]

This is a question that can only be answered by yourself.

You can't explain the VR experience, you have to try it.

In my case, once I've tried there's no going back. If for some reason I can't play in VR anymore I will be leaving the game. The immersion is sensational, the feeling of sitting inside the cockpit cannot be compared to anything else, even if you're giving up some visual quality (as 2D will always look better than VR).

Some people are not convinced and prefer 2D, and that's ok. There's no right or wrong here, play the way you like.

Edited November 26, 2024 by diego999

[brettt777]

On 11/25/2024 at 5:42 AM, Lace said:

'Better' is very much subjective and there is no right or wrong answer here.  

I do all my flying in VR.  I have a half sim-pit, with MFDs and a Viper ICP, all of which I can use with muscle memory and a bit of careful prodding.  I know I am compromising some performance and visual fidelity for immersion, and that's fine with me.  The one big disadvantage of VR IMHO is the inability to quickly look at briefing docs/manuals/kneeboards etc.  I know there are some mods and PDF readers etc, but they are a bit clunky and certainly not as convenient as simply glancing at a printout or iPad as you would with a single or multi-monitor setup.

If I was exclusively doing civvy flying, then I would consider a three-monitor setup, but for more dynamic combat flying, then there is no way I would abandon VR, unless it was for some kind of 360 projection full-motion simpit, which is just not feasible for me.

Okay so since you have an MFD setup, maybe you can answer more specific questions. The problem is have with VR is like you said, there are documents and such that like to reference when I'm flying. I have a second small mo itor on my system at the moment and what I do is put a controls list up for whatever I'm flying. I have a Winwing Orion 2 HOTAS that has over a hundred switch positions between the throttle and stick. And I fly so many different planes that it's not possible (for me, anyway) to remember all of them. So I like tp be able to reference that. That's kind of why, even though VR is obviously much more immersive, i was tossing around the idea of a triple monitor setup. Here's my dilemma. Say I have the Winwing MIP setup and I got my three MFD's and UFC, ect. I found a way the other night to get the monitor to show only the HUD and windscreen, which would match up to the MIP set very nicely. Only problem is, with a single monitor setup looking only at the HUD, you have no head tracking and you can't see anything but right in front of you. If you turn on the TrackIR, then you can't get the HUD only view. And with head tracking on, as you look around, you're looking outside to the left and right and up. Then if you look down, you're looking at another set of MFD's, which kinda defeats the idea of the Winwing MIP set. I guess what I'm after is a setup that would match the desktop MIP with the virtual HUD, while still being able to look up and to the sides. Does that make sense? I was wondering if a three(or four...?) monitor setup gives you enough viewable real estate, with two more 32" monitors on the sides and maybe one above.

I will still fly VR, of course. No amount of monitors can bring the immersion that VR can. I was in the US Navy for twelve years on carriers. I got to sit in some pretty high end aircraft. The first time I got in an F-14 in VR, I literally almost cried, cuz it looked so real. But VR isn't something I want to do all the time. Health issues can make my Quest 2 get very uncomfortable. 

Edited November 27, 2024 by brettt777

[Grennymaster]

for my personaly. VR is as close as i can get to real flying. I flown helos and some ultra light aircraft in real life. Even with physical buttonboxes etc. i never would get back to monitor muskle memory is the key

What you have to considre is the fact that VR is not cheap. you need a high end or higer end PC an an good heaset.

If you unsure what to do, look if you can make contact to a mate or flysimbuddy here wich has a vr setup. experience it for yourself is the best to make a choice

[brettt777]

Just now, Grennymaster said:

for my personaly. VR is as close as i can get to real flying. I flown helos and some ultra light aircraft in real life. Even with physical buttonboxes etc. i never would get back to monitor muskle memory is the key

What you have to considre is the fact that VR is not cheap. you need a high end or higer end PC an an good heaset.

If you unsure what to do, look if you can make contact to a mate or flysimbuddy here wich has a vr setup. experience it for yourself is the best to make a choice

Well, like I said, I have a VR set and my system runs it fine. I do fly it when I can. Unfortunately, health issues can make it extremely uncomfortable sometimes. If all I ever did was VR, then I would just get the VR version of the Winwing MIP. It has all the buttons and knobs but no MFD displays.

[Lace]

1 hour ago, brettt777 said:

Okay so since you have an MFD setup, maybe you can answer more specific questions. The problem is have with VR is like you said, there are documents and such that like to reference when I'm flying. I have a second small mo itor on my system at the moment and what I do is put a controls list up for whatever I'm flying. I have a Winwing Orion 2 HOTAS that has over a hundred switch positions between the throttle and stick. And I fly so many different planes that it's not possible (for me, anyway) to remember all of them. So I like tp be able to reference that. That's kind of why, even though VR is obviously much more immersive, i was tossing around the idea of a triple monitor setup. Here's my dilemma. Say I have the Winwing MIP setup and I got my three MFD's and UFC, ect. I found a way the other night to get the monitor to show only the HUD and windscreen, which would match up to the MIP set very nicely. Only problem is, with a single monitor setup looking only at the HUD, you have no head tracking and you can't see anything but right in front of you. If you turn on the TrackIR, then you can't get the HUD only view. And with head tracking on, as you look around, you're looking outside to the left and right and up. Then if you look down, you're looking at another set of MFD's, which kinda defeats the idea of the Winwing MIP set. I guess what I'm after is a setup that would match the desktop MIP with the virtual HUD, while still being able to look up and to the sides. Does that make sense? I was wondering if a three(or four...?) monitor setup gives you enough viewable real estate, with two more 32" monitors on the sides and maybe one above.

I will still fly VR, of course. No amount of monitors can bring the immersion that VR can. I was in the US Navy for twelve years on carriers. I got to sit in some pretty high end aircraft. The first time I got in an F-14 in VR, I literally almost cried, cuz it looked so real. But VR isn't something I want to do all the time. Health issues can make my Quest 2 get very uncomfortable. 

The biggest thing I changed to reduce the workload and control assignments to memorise is to have as much commonality between modules, and don't worry too much if the cockpit or HOTAS controls are in the correct place or not with reference to the 'real' aircraft.  This solves, or at least reduces the need for a physical control map nearby.

As for the HUD/cockpit view FOV, I've not really done anything in DCS with multi-monitors, so I don't know if you can achieve what you really want.  With your proposed setup, how would you check-six for example?  It sounds to me that a VR pass-though might be a good option for you, which allows you to blank out areas from the VR display, allowing you to see your simpit and docs monitor, but again, this isn't something I've tried.

Honestly, I don't think the perfect solution exists, short of flying the aircraft for real.  Any setup will be compromised in some way, such is life.

 

 

[Dangerzone]

2 hours ago, Lace said:

The biggest thing I changed to reduce the workload and control assignments to memorise is to have as much commonality between modules, and don't worry too much if the cockpit or HOTAS controls are in the correct place or not with reference to the 'real' aircraft.  This solves, or at least reduces the need for a physical control map nearby.

I second this. This is what I had to do in order to fly the amount of aircraft I do - make things as common as possible. 

You can load your control assignments into a graphic, and put it on your kneeboard so you have something to refer to in VR if you need to as well. 

Sometimes it can be easier to learn certain functions of an aircraft out of VR, and then transition to VR once you have the muscle memory.

My personal preference would be for both. To switch dynamically between VR and 2D. I just think of programming the CNI in the chinook, and other tasks where it would be nice to do the pre-flight stuff in 2D, but then switch to VR for the actual flight. VR also doesn't work with Airboss, and CA can be a bit flaky too - so that would be also nice to be able to toggle between the two. Unfortunately I don't think that's ever going to be a think in DCS from what I've seen previously mentioned, but one can always dream.

[freehand]

Once you have taken the red pill there is no return that is how I felt in 2017 now I like both but I still like giving friends a replay in VR just to see there reaction with disbelief.  

Edited November 27, 2024 by freehand

[brettt777]

8 hours ago, Lace said:

The biggest thing I changed to reduce the workload and control assignments to memorise is to have as much commonality between modules, and don't worry too much if the cockpit or HOTAS controls are in the correct place or not with reference to the 'real' aircraft.  This solves, or at least reduces the need for a physical control map nearby.

8 hours ago, Lace said:

Yeah, I do that. I make as much as I can standard in as many aircraft as I can. Like for instance, there are three hats on my throttle that I always try to put as radar range and mode, countermeasures, and comms. Then the speed brakes are always on the same switch and I try to use the same switches for A/A or A/G weapons selection. But you can't always do that. Selecting SOI and target acquisition and weapons deployment are different between most of the jets like F-16, FA-18 and JF-17. And, I admit I am kind of anal about trying to get the HOTAS switch setup as close to the RL aircraft as I can. I may just have to go back to having a notebook set off to the side for reference, but then you can't really use that in VR. Maybe I'll try putting a graphic into the kneeboard like Dangerzone said.