fixed George cannot see any targets

[Greyman]

It looks like it was just finger-trouble on my part, particularly in understanding whether George is actually searching or not.  All of this "slaving, de-slaving" stuff was apparently too complicated for my small brain.  I've just done the mission again, following the same start up process, and did manage to get the "blinkers" from George's head, as he was seeing and engaging targets. 

However, I still failed the mission and I'll blame the other 3 in the flight, as they appeared to be not too keen on engaging AAA, despite me "asking them" to do so, via the flight section of the menu. Suffice it to say, they left enough AAA to take out my No 1 engine, followed a few minutes later by No 2.  It flew OK with just 1, but I'm afraid none was asking a bit much.  

Apparently, I just need to "git gud", as my son always says when I mess up on the sim. 

Edited January 27 by Greyman

[SloppyDog]

59 minutes ago, Greyman said:

It looks like it was just finger-trouble on my part, particularly in understanding whether George is actually searching or not.  All of this "slaving, de-slaving" stuff was apparently too complicated for my small brain.  I've just done the mission again, following the same start up process, and did manage to get the "blinkers" from George's head, as he was seeing and engaging targets. 

However, I still failed the mission and I'll blame the other 3 in the flight, as they appeared to be not too keen on engaging AAA, despite me "asking them" to do so, via the flight section of the menu. Suffice it to say, they left enough AAA to take out my No 1 engine, followed a few minutes later by No 2.  It flew OK with just 1, but I'm afraid none was asking a bit much.  

Apparently, I just need to "git gud", as my son always says when I mess up on the sim. 

The targeting system in the Apache was clearly done by engineers, not pilots. And I'm an engineer, so I know what is like to make things overly complicated!

And, I know, all this sight and acquisition sources thing can be daunting.

The slave and de-slaving part:

1) When you push the George button up, he will "slave" the TADS to the pilot sight (your sight). So whatever you are looking at, the TADS will move along. It means that if you look at a truck, or building or, the dreaded AAA, the TADS is looking at the same thing. "Slaved" means TADS bound to the pilot helmet sight.

2) Then, when you push the George button up again, he will say "de-slaved". It means that the TADS will be locked to the last location you looked at. Now, the TADS is not moving along the pilot sight (your sight). Now the TADS is free from the movements of the pilot sight. 

3) Once the TADS is locked at a point ("de-slaved"), George will start a search in the general area, looking for targets. How effective will he be? It depends on the realism settings. On Page 425 of the manual the target identification logic is explained.

4) He will populate the list if the targets he finds in the line of sight. Not the current line of sight, but the line of sight where you told him to search for targets. The line of sight where he last said "de-slaved".

Well, my explanation was meant to clear things up endep up being more complicated than I thought it would be. But I warned you, I'm an engineer!

Anyway, I hope it helps to clear a little bit the "slaved"/"de-slaved" confusion.

P.S.: regarding the AI lack of good spectacles or being stubborn, it is a problem with DCS AI itself. The best thing, the only one that works, is to tell them to "Engage Targets of Opportunity". Then they will engage anything and everything they see. But they won't coordinate with you. They will attack the same targets you are attacking. And they won't protect themselves, or use any self-protection tactics. More often than not, the AI wingmen in DCS are dead weight. And don't get attached to them, they'll die in the most stupid ways.  

 

 

 

Edited January 27 by SloppyDog

[Greyman]

That's going to be really helpful and thanks for taking the time.

I'm getting there, slowly but surely, and it might just be me, but is this just a more complicated aircraft to master than those that have gone before?  

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, SloppyDog said:

2) Then, when you push the George button up again, he will say "de-slaved". It means that the TADS will be locked to the last location you looked at. Now, the TADS is not moving along the pilot sight (your sight). Now the TADS is free from the movements of the pilot sight.

There is no need to press Up a second time. George will automatically de-slave from your line of sight and begin searching.

Pressing Up when the George interface is simply saying "Gunner, Target, Pilot Helmet Sight." Which is a common and standard target handover technique used by real AH-64D crews to cue the gunner to a target the pilot has visually acquired.

57 minutes ago, Greyman said:

That's going to be really helpful and thanks for taking the time.

I'm getting there, slowly but surely, and it might just be me, but is this just a more complicated aircraft to master than those that have gone before?  

No, it is not any more complex than any other modern aircraft. It is just designed for a different mission, in a different combat environment, and to fight in a different manner than a fixed-wing aircraft.

[SloppyDog]

5 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

There is no need to press Up a second time. George will automatically de-slave from your line of sight and begin searching.

Pressing Up when the George interface is simply saying "Gunner, Target, Pilot Helmet Sight." Which is a common and standard target handover technique used by real AH-64D crews to cue the gunner to a target the pilot has visually acquired.

Thanks for the correction. I was writing from memory and did not remember it right.

6 hours ago, Greyman said:

That's going to be really helpful and thanks for taking the time.

I'm getting there, slowly but surely, and it might just be me, but is this just a more complicated aircraft to master than those that have gone before?  

It is complex. Helos are more compIex than (modern) fixed wing. [Cold War birds are very complex. Old WWII birds were hard to fly and easy on the systems. Modern are really easy to fly and hard on the systems. Cold war are both hard to fly and hard on the systems.] 

I believe what makes the Apache particularly complex is the Acquisition Source and Sight concepts. Because sometimes one can be other and vice-versa

The people who fly these amazing machines do it with extensive briefings and fly almost day in, day out. And we, virtual pilots, are doing as we go, without much direction or proper training.

Edited January 28 by SloppyDog

[Greyman]

6 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

No, it is not any more complex than any other modern aircraft. It is just designed for a different mission, in a different combat environment, and to fight in a different manner than a fixed-wing aircraft.

It must be just me then.  Maybe I've been away "flying" civil aircraft for too long?  

1 hour ago, SloppyDog said:

I believe what makes the Apache particularly complex is the Acquisition Source and Sight concepts. Because sometimes one can be other and vice-versa

Yes, understanding and distinguishing between these two did cause me a little difficulty getting my head around, but I think I'm there now.  Also, perhaps as in RL, adding the need to communicate effectively with another "person" can add complexity to any task. 

However, all of the above just adds to the fascination with being able to master this bird's systems.  As for flying it, I've flown most of the other helicopters in DCS, and a fair few in other sims, and I have found this one to be really enjoyable and rewarding to fly.

Edited January 28 by Greyman

[Greyman]

Well, I've just had another, perhaps more successful, attempt at the mission, although it didn't end overly well.

I apparently "lost" both engines, but was still able to limp back to base, which must be over 20km away.  Is there something about the damage model I'm missing, as losing both engines on an aircraft that only has two engines doesn't really sound like it should end too well?  Also, I was hoping to repair, reload and rearm, before returning to the target area to finish the job, but it looks like the mission designers must have had a single visit in mind.

OK, it didn't end overly well, but I've had a ball and George appeared to behave himself pretty well too. 

[SloppyDog]

That's strange. Because when you lose them, you really lose them. 

Weren't they degraded? I don't know how you played it, but if you hover to fire Hellfires or to look for targets, and you are heavy, the Engines have a limited amount of time that they can provide enough power before they are damaged. In the ENGINE page (ENG) it will show yellow bars for the engines and a countdown below them, showing how much time you have left.

Or was it by ground fire? You wouldn't be able to limp back with two engines down.

Do you have a track for the mission?

 

[Greyman]

It was AAA that got my engines, one at a time with probably 10mins in between.

I didn't do any hovering, even with just one engine lost, and headed away from the target area when the second one "went pop".  However, I was able to get all of the way back to base, albeit with obviously degraded performance.  Perhaps I should have paid more attention to the engine display, but didn't save a track.  

Just looking through my settings it would appear that at some point in the past, I'd activated crash auto-recovery, so maybe that was my "problem".  I've turned that off now, so will try it again.  If it still happens, I'll save the track. 

[ShuRugal]

On 1/29/2025 at 3:11 PM, Greyman said:

It was AAA that got my engines, one at a time with probably 10mins in between.

I didn't do any hovering, even with just one engine lost, and headed away from the target area when the second one "went pop".  However, I was able to get all of the way back to base, albeit with obviously degraded performance.  Perhaps I should have paid more attention to the engine display, but didn't save a track.  

Just looking through my settings it would appear that at some point in the past, I'd activated crash auto-recovery, so maybe that was my "problem".  I've turned that off now, so will try it again.  If it still happens, I'll save the track. 

I believe that you will get an "engine fail" alarm if the TGT sensor fails, which seems to be pretty common when taking damage.

Usually when i see this alarm, i will notice that the TGT readout for the engine is showing 0 (which is obviously impossible, indicating sensor failure), but the fuel flow indicator for that engine still indicates full-power or close-to-full-power fuel flow.  I will usually also see a non-zero torque value in this condition as well.

 

Basically, to really be sure that an engine is dead, you need more than the engine-out alarm.  If the engine is really dead, you will see abnormal indication on TGT, Np%, Torque %, and fuel flow for that engine.  If you see a normal or near-normal value for any of those 4 categories, the engine is still producing power, and you probably have battle-damage to one or more sensors giving you faulty indication.

Edited March 3 by ShuRugal

[Leg2ion]

On 3/3/2025 at 3:23 PM, ShuRugal said:

I believe that you will get an "engine fail" alarm if the TGT sensor fails, which seems to be pretty common when taking damage.

Usually when i see this alarm, i will notice that the TGT readout for the engine is showing 0 (which is obviously impossible, indicating sensor failure), but the fuel flow indicator for that engine still indicates full-power or close-to-full-power fuel flow.  I will usually also see a non-zero torque value in this condition as well.

 

Basically, to really be sure that an engine is dead, you need more than the engine-out alarm.  If the engine is really dead, you will see abnormal indication on TGT, Np%, Torque %, and fuel flow for that engine.  If you see a normal or near-normal value for any of those 4 categories, the engine is still producing power, and you probably have battle-damage to one or more sensors giving you faulty indication.

Funnily enough I have been playing around in the Scud Hunt mission, and as per @Greyman post, I got an 'Engine 1 out. Engine 2 out' in fairly quick succession last night, BUT both engines stayed in the green and the Nr didn't blink. Happened as I was egressing away from the Scud base after a low level run in and taking some small arms fire. Didn't notice any other issues (but then didn't really look). When my engines are hit it normally isn't good....