correct as is JTAG laser beam no longer visible

[DaveTC]

Hi all,

Merry X-mas to you all!

Since the X-mas update the JTAG laser beam is no longer visible in the VID page of the MFD. I am wondering if this is intentional of is this another bug that appeared in this latest patch?

In the previous version one could see the JTAG laser beam pointing to the target and one could point the apache in that direction before firing.

Kind regards

[Floyd1212]

The fact that you could see the laser through the TADS was a bug introduced in a recent patch, which they fixed in the patch yesterday.

You should still be able to see the JTAC’s laser if you put on your NVGs. 

[Solo_Turk]

previous one was a bug. now it's correct. you can't see laser with nvg either. you can only see InfraRed marker which is different  from laser.

[corbu1]

Yes, you shouldn‘t see the laser in the TADS. 

[DaveTC]

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

Merry Christmas and I would also like to take this opportunity to wish you all the best wishes for 2025!

Kind regards

 

[Kh4]

On 12/26/2024 at 3:59 AM, Solo_Turk said:

previous one was a bug. now it's correct. you can't see laser with nvg either. you can only see InfraRed marker which is different  from laser.

Ok, so just to be sure, there is no longer a visual cue for the laser so we need to slave to a known location or approximate direction so the laser hellfire can find the target?

[Floyd1212]

If you can get the JTAC to “sparkle” the target with his IR marker, you can still see that with NVGs. Otherwise, use the coordinates he provides and create a point, and set the point as your DIR TO or ACQ for aligning the aircraft. 

[Solo_Turk]

7 hours ago, Kh4 said:

Ok, so just to be sure, there is no longer a visual cue for the laser so we need to slave to a known location or approximate direction so the laser hellfire can find the target?

There is no visual cue for laser. only laser spot tracker. or sometimes hellfire can see and lock to jtac's laser if the conditions are right. , if you are going to use hellfire in DIR(in this mode, HF's seeker tries to look at tads fov) , you will need to find target location with your tads first. so, you need to find jtac's laser. to find it, u need LST. if you use it in remote(in remote mode, you enter jtac's or other aircraft's laser code(different from yours) in hellfire) you need to align hellfire to approximate location by either selecting FIX as ACQ and turning heli to there or selecting a target point, wp etc as ACQ. And if you don't know the location and don't have any point of that, you again need lst. There are 3 modes of laser spot tracker. first is auto which scans forward like air to air radar. you can use it if you don't know approximate location.more area to search, more time it needs to lock(if it sees). If you know approx location via coordinate, wp acq source etc, you can use manual mode.At first, slave to location, deslave.start lst in manual. then you can search area manually (you have control).If it sees a laser which you entered in lst code, it locks.  3rd mod is "off". after finding the target, you have to turn lst off to use tads normally again(you can't lase and store targets if you don't turn off the lst.). There are too much information to share about hi-low-remote thing. you better get into the manual 

[Floyd1212]

3 hours ago, Solo_Turk said:

if you are going to use hellfire in DIR(in this mode, HF's seeker tries to look at tads fov) , you will need to find target location with your tads first.

This is not quite right.  The Hellfire does not look in the direction the TADS is pointing like a Maverick, but instead has a fixed FOV.

DIR is one of the three trajectories you can select when firing a HF in LOAL mode.  It has a direct flight path toward the target, as opposed to a LO loft, or HI loft.  If the missile seeker sees the laser energy matching its assigned code prior to launch, it will default back to LOBL mode and loft the missile appropriately for that specific target.

You can launch a Hellfire in LOAL mode from the back seat with the trajectory set to DIR without getting the TADS involved.  As long as you are facing the correct direction, there aren't any terrain obstructions, and the target is at an appropriate range, the missile will pick up the remote laser and track its target.

[Raptor9]

5 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

This is not quite right.  The Hellfire does not look in the direction the TADS is pointing like a Maverick, but instead has a fixed FOV.

DIR is one of the three trajectories you can select when firing a HF in LOAL mode.  It has a direct flight path toward the target, as opposed to a LO loft, or HI loft.

Solo_Turk is correct in his statements. The AGM-114K does not have a fixed field-of-view; the seeker is slaved to the TADS when in LOAL and trajectory is set to DIR (shown below on page 481 of the Early Access Guide).

All three LOAL trajectories will cause the missile to loft after launch, even DIR, as illustrated on page 477. But DIR has the minimum loft of the three; and regardless of the selected trajectory, the missile does not know where the target is when fired in LOAL mode, so it will continue to fly along the same azimuth from the moment of launch. This is why all LOAL trajectories have the same launch constraint of 7.5 degrees. The only difference between each trajectory is the amount of loft post-launch.

[Floyd1212]

Interesting.  I didn't realize it did that.  Pretty cool.

Regardless, if you are firing LOAL on the laser from a JTAC (or a buddy) from the back seat, you don't need to have acquired the laser spot with the LST before you can rifle, or even point the TADS in the direction of the target.  When the missile comes off the rail it looks for the laser energy along its flight path both to the left and right of center, correct?

Or if my Sight is HMD, and I'm looking out the right window when I rifle the missile, and the target is off to the left of center, it will not see the target because the seeker is looking off to the right somewhere after launch?

[Raptor9]

16 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

Regardless, if you are firing LOAL on the laser from a JTAC (or a buddy) from the back seat, you don't need to have acquired the laser spot with the LST before you can rifle, or even point the TADS in the direction of the target.  When the missile comes off the rail it looks for the laser energy along its flight path both to the left and right of center, correct?

Or if my Sight is HMD, and I'm looking out the right window when I rifle the missile, and the target is off to the left of center, it will not see the target because the seeker is looking off to the right somewhere after launch?

The factors that drive where the seeker is positioned and how the missile constraints box symbology behaves is all pre-launch logic to 1) acquire a laser designation prior to launch if employing LOBL and/or 2) direct the pilot to maneuver into proper launch constraints prior to firing to ensure the missile can maintain track on a laser designation after launch (LOBL) or to ensure it can acquire a laser designation after launch (LOAL). None of the seeker slave or constraints box positioning applies once the missile is off the rail, meaning it doesn't remain slaved left, right, up, or down based on the selected sight of the crewmember that fired the missile because the umbilical to the aircraft has been disconnected.

After launch, if the missile doesn't see a laser designation, it will just fly straight ahead along the same azimuth the aircraft was pointed at the moment of launch, regardless of where the crewmember's selected sight was pointed prior to launch, while performing a loft trajectory in accordance with the TRAJ setting on the WPN page, until it sees a matching laser designation or loses kinematic energy and impacts the ground.

If I've actioned missiles with the sight set to HMD (which defaults to SAL type) with the trajectory set to DIR, as I move my head around the missile constraints box will move as well, which represents the seeker moving around based on where I am looking, with the assumption that the aircraft has line-of-sight to the target and can acquire a laser designating the target (from the ownship or someone else). If I am looking away from the laser designation, the missile won't see it. If I look in the direction of the laser designation, the missile will see it and begin tracking, and the missile constraints box will become large and indicate PRI CHAN TRK. At that point, I can then look away or back inside the cockpit since the seeker is now tracking the laser designation and no longer slaved to my head. But if the missile loses sight of the laser designation or if the laser stops emitting, the seeker will exit track mode and then slave back to my helmet line-of-sight. It works the same if using TADS as the sight.

But again, after launch it no longer follows slaving directions since there is no sight to slave to, which is why the size of missile launch constraints box represents how close to the aircraft heading the target must be prior to launch.

• If the missile is already tracking a laser, the missile launch constraints are wide and more permissive because the missile will be immediately maneuvering to the target after launch, so the constraints box symbology is wide. If SKR LIMIT appears in the symbology, it is warning the crew the missile seeker is reaching the edge of its gimbal limit and so the laser spot may exit the seeker field-of-view after launch before the missile can physically maneuver toward its direction.
• If the missile is not tracking a laser, the missile launch constraints are narrow and restrictive because the missile must fly close enough to the laser designation to capture it within the seeker field-of-view, so the constraints box symbology is narrow. If YAW LIMIT appears in the symbology, it is warning the crew the azimuth to the target is too far left or right of the aircraft centerline, and the missile may not see the laser designation along its flight path after launch if the laser designating the target is outside the seeker field-of-view as it flies past.

[Floyd1212]

Thanks for the very detailed explanation.

Understanding exactly how everything works is part of the enjoyment we all get out of this niche “hobby”. 

[Kh4]

5 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

The factors that drive where the seeker is positioned and how the missile constraints box symbology behaves is all pre-launch logic to 1) acquire a laser designation prior to launch if employing LOBL and/or 2) direct the pilot to maneuver into proper launch constraints prior to firing to ensure the missile can maintain track on a laser designation after launch (LOBL) or to ensure it can acquire a laser designation after launch (LOAL). None of the seeker slave or constraints box positioning applies once the missile is off the rail, meaning it doesn't remain slaved left, right, up, or down based on the selected sight of the crewmember that fired the missile because the umbilical to the aircraft has been disconnected.

After launch, if the missile doesn't see a laser designation, it will just fly straight ahead along the same azimuth the aircraft was pointed at the moment of launch, regardless of where the crewmember's selected sight was pointed prior to launch, while performing a loft trajectory in accordance with the TRAJ setting on the WPN page, until it sees a matching laser designation or loses kinematic energy and impacts the ground.

If I've actioned missiles with the sight set to HMD (which defaults to SAL type) with the trajectory set to DIR, as I move my head around the missile constraints box will move as well, which represents the seeker moving around based on where I am looking, with the assumption that the aircraft has line-of-sight to the target and can acquire a laser designating the target (from the ownship or someone else). If I am looking away from the laser designation, the missile won't see it. If I look in the direction of the laser designation, the missile will see it and begin tracking, and the missile constraints box will become large and indicate PRI CHAN TRK. At that point, I can then look away or back inside the cockpit since the seeker is now tracking the laser designation and no longer slaved to my head. But if the missile loses sight of the laser designation or if the laser stops emitting, the seeker will exit track mode and then slave back to my helmet line-of-sight. It works the same if using TADS as the sight.

But again, after launch it no longer follows slaving directions since there is no sight to slave to, which is why the size of missile launch constraints box represents how close to the aircraft heading the target must be prior to launch.

• If the missile is already tracking a laser, the missile launch constraints are wide and more permissive because the missile will be immediately maneuvering to the target after launch, so the constraints box symbology is wide. If SKR LIMIT appears in the symbology, it is warning the crew the missile seeker is reaching the edge of its gimbal limit and so the laser spot may exit the seeker field-of-view after launch before the missile can physically maneuver toward its direction.
• If the missile is not tracking a laser, the missile launch constraints are narrow and restrictive because the missile must fly close enough to the laser designation to capture it within the seeker field-of-view, so the constraints box symbology is narrow. If YAW LIMIT appears in the symbology, it is warning the crew the azimuth to the target is too far left or right of the aircraft centerline, and the missile may not see the laser designation along its flight path after launch if the laser designating the target is outside the seeker field-of-view as it flies past.

This is gold

[Raptor9]

43 minutes ago, Kh4 said:

This is gold

A lot of this is already in the DCS AH-64D Early Access Guide, along with a lot of other useful information about using these various settings and the corresponding symbology.

[Kh4]

2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

A lot of this is already in the DCS AH-64D Early Access Guide, along with a lot of other useful information about using these various settings and the corresponding symbology.

Of course, and I read it yesterday. However, I found it easier to comprehend what you had written lol