Remaster - too much sharpening on the textures?

[virgo47]

I generally like the new F-5 cockpit, but there was something that was bothering me about it and today I found out what it is. It seems like the textures are over-sharpened (or whatever else processing with similar effect) - especially around texts. I assume the text has some texture, perhaps it's etched or what, but look at it:

The black contour lines around the text are clearly visible. And close up:

This is even worse, it looks more like a cartoonish game. Many elements don't seem to suffer from this effect. E.g. the knobs seem to be OK, pedals are also fine, but the text is funny with the outlines.

What do you think?

Edited December 27, 2024 by virgo47

[Bucic]

I was about to post a series of reports with remastered cockpit issues. This being the main one. I intended to title it 'Most of cockpit labels should be convex, not concave'. Or embossed, whatever you wanna call it. Silk printed labels do appear flat or slightly embossed and it happens that's the look that should be reflected with F-5E, and F-5A, T-38 for that matter. Only very few panels may exhibit some "milled in labels" look. There's also absolutely no contrasting outline on the fonts of the original cockpit. Which is rather obvious.

 

 

[virgo47]

Just to clarify - what is the source of your picture? Is it a real plane, just zoomed in? (Because I see some pixelation, I'm not sure.)

[Bucic]

30 minutes ago, virgo47 said:

Just to clarify - what is the source of your picture? Is it a real plane, just zoomed in? (Because I see some pixelation, I'm not sure.)

This is a real F-5 panel I own, in perfect condition. The outline you may see comes mostly from camera grain on the overexposed photo. In case of backlit labels they may in fact be very slightly debossed. It doesn't change the fact that they appear completely flat in most lighting conditions. Let me get a better photo.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Bucic

[Bucic]

There is virtually no outline. You take the panel texture, slap freshly created lettering, de-white it some 5% and you're done. The real labels are THAT sharp looking. All the rest you leave to your mip map generator to handle.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Bucic

[virgo47]

1 hour ago, Bucic said:

There is virtually no outline. You take the panel texture, slap freshly created lettering, de-white it some 5% and you're done. The real labels are THAT sharp looking. All the rest you leave to your mip map generator to handle.

Thanks for the response.

The problem with current execution is not only realism - but the resulting effect looks more like TV ghosting than anything realistic. Or like an outline in games such as Borderlands. It's really ugly.

[Bucic]

Just now, virgo47 said:

Thanks for the response.

The problem with current execution is not only realism - but the resulting effect looks more like TV ghosting than anything realistic. Or like an outline in games such as Borderlands. It's really ugly.

Exactly. It's both incorrect and counterproductive as far as in-game rendering goes. That's the clue of this particular issue.

[virgo47]

To clarify - I use no Reshade or anything - and it also seems to be affected by lighting conditions. I'm playing another training mission that starts with the rain and the same panel looks much better this time. Although some "ghosting" like stuff still appears it is much less annoying and very subtle this time. This picture is quite zoomed in - which makes it more obvious (and worse), but it's definitely more 3D this time and less about "sharpening" effect. I still think it looks artificial, but I just wanted to clarify why it may not be as obvious. It's light-dependent. (Some extreme bump mapping, perhaps?)

[RustBelt]

6 hours ago, virgo47 said:

To clarify - I use no Reshade or anything - and it also seems to be affected by lighting conditions. I'm playing another training mission that starts with the rain and the same panel looks much better this time. Although some "ghosting" like stuff still appears it is much less annoying and very subtle this time. This picture is quite zoomed in - which makes it more obvious (and worse), but it's definitely more 3D this time and less about "sharpening" effect. I still think it looks artificial, but I just wanted to clarify why it may not be as obvious. It's light-dependent. (Some extreme bump mapping, perhaps?)

Is the backlight marking engraved or is the “base” color screened on with the lettering masked? I know there’s a couple ways to do it but neither is particularly tall/deep.

[Bucic]

Black paint (?) is applied with lettering masked to keep the base semi transparent plate free. The paint is matt. As I said, it appears flat.

[Megalax]

Willing to bet its the normal maps for the cockpit doing that, but one can't check that because they're locked up tighter than Fort Knox.

[twistking]

21 hours ago, Bucic said:

I was about to post a series of reports with remastered cockpit issues. This being the main one. I intended to title it 'Most of cockpit labels should be convex, not concave'. Or embossed, whatever you wanna call it. Silk printed labels do appear flat or slightly embossed and it happens that's the look that should be reflected with F-5E, and F-5A, T-38 for that matter. Only very few panels may exhibit some "milled in labels" look. There's also absolutely no contrasting outline on the fonts of the original cockpit. Which is rather obvious.

 

 

Maybe a hot take, but i think that accentuating the text with a light bevel is well within artistic liberties when it helps readability and still looks "realistic enough". That said, i also agree that in this case the effect is overdone. On smaller resolutions it can also lead to moiré/flickering.
It should be dialed back a little bit. If it's indeed just normal mapping, then it should be a quick fix.

Edited December 28, 2024 by twistking

[Bucic]

34 minutes ago, twistking said:

Maybe a hot take, but i think that accentuating the text with a light bevel is well within artistic liberties when it helps readability and still looks "realistic enough". That said, i also agree that in this case the effect is overdone. On smaller resolutions it can also lead to moiré/flickering.
It should be dialed back a little bit. If it's indeed just normal mapping, then it should be a quick fix.

It doesn't help anything and is visible at first glance

And I pitty anyone trying to run DCS with minimal Anti-Aliasing.

[twistking]

19 minutes ago, Bucic said:

It doesn't help anything and is visible at first glance

And I pitty anyone trying to run DCS with minimal Anti-Aliasing.

Yes. I did not argue with that.

[Bucic]

25 minutes ago, twistking said:

Yes. I did not argue with that.

I know. I'm treating the whole labels thing as a bit of a tongue in cheek matter at this point.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Bucic

[twistking]

Do we know if it's "painted on" (albedo), or a shader/pp result (f.e. normal map)?
Should be easily observable when changing the angle of illumination (aka aileron rolling). I cannot test myself, since i'm still locked to sub 10fps...

ps: For me it looks like exaggerated AO (ambient occlusion), but for that to be true the bevel would need to be actual geometry which i highly doubt... If it's caused by normal maps, there must be something off with the material: There's no good PBR compatible reason for the edges getting so uniformly dark...

Edited December 28, 2024 by twistking