Khasab ILS inaccurate

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Khasab ILS inaccurate

Why is ILS, on A-10C II, so inaccurate, on this field? I may be a little low, but look at localizer and glideslope bars. Highly off. If I wa sin Cat II or Cat III IFR ILS conditions, and relying on ILS, I would crash to the side of the runway.

[Minsky]

23 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Why is ILS, on A-10C II, so inaccurate

Why would it be accurate if you haven't set the course?

[DmitriKozlowsky]

I see. ILS has to have course set to give accurate information. But isn't ILS dependant on radio beams? Thats a litte confusing. 

My WP was set to airfieliefd landing.

[=475FG= Dawger]

3 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I see. ILS has to have course set to give accurate information. But isn't ILS dependant on radio beams? Thats a litte confusing. 

My WP was set to airfieliefd landing.

It depends on the equipment in the aircraft on whether or not you need to set the course. Anything with an HSI should have the localizer course dialed in. 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

32 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

It depends on the equipment in the aircraft on whether or not you need to set the course. Anything with an HSI should have the localizer course dialed in. 

OK, well then my understanding of ILS, despite hours of YouTube videos, mis sorely off mark. They desctribe two sets of beams. One pair for glideslope, second pair for localiser. ILS field frequency is entered, ILS is enabled. Then beams are intercepted and aircraft flown down to minimums. Nowhere does it say that Course has to be set a particular way in order for beams to give accurate information. So I still don't understand, why, even with course not set, does my A-10CII gives me inaccurate needles.

[razo+r]

42 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

OK, well then my understanding of ILS, despite hours of YouTube videos, mis sorely off mark. They desctribe two sets of beams. One pair for glideslope, second pair for localiser. ILS field frequency is entered, ILS is enabled. Then beams are intercepted and aircraft flown down to minimums. Nowhere does it say that Course has to be set a particular way in order for beams to give accurate information. So I still don't understand, why, even with course not set, does my A-10CII gives me inaccurate needles.

The CDI and GS show correct in your picture, it's the FD that is showing a right turn because you set the course incorrectly.

If you want to fly a raw approach, setting the course is not needed. If you want to fly an approach with the FD, setting the correct course is required. Why the FD is using the course and not course/CDI can only ED/Aircraft manufacturer tell you.

Edited January 1 by razo+r

[=475FG= Dawger]

34 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

OK, well then my understanding of ILS, despite hours of YouTube videos, mis sorely off mark. They desctribe two sets of beams. One pair for glideslope, second pair for localiser. ILS field frequency is entered, ILS is enabled. Then beams are intercepted and aircraft flown down to minimums. Nowhere does it say that Course has to be set a particular way in order for beams to give accurate information. So I still don't understand, why, even with course not set, does my A-10CII gives me inaccurate needles.

Your understanding of the ILS is accurate.

 

The problem lies with individual aircraft avionics setups. If you are using a dedicated VOR/ILS receiver and display head, there is no way to set the course and thus it is always accurate. Old HSI systems also didn't require dialing in the course needle but doing so made flying the approach make more sense. Anything with a blended navigation system/FMC will require you to know that system in order to know the correct procedure.

When I quit flying for a living, everything I flew did all that stuff automatically once you punched in the planned approach.

I can't answer specifically what is required in the A-10C II or whether it is modeled correctly in DCS.

 

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

5 minutes ago, razo+r said:

The CDI and GS show correct in your picture, it's the FD that is showing a right turn because you set the course incorrectly.

If you want to fly a raw approach, setting the course is not needed. If you want to fly an approach with the FD, setting the correct course is required. Why the FD is using the course and not course/CDI can only ED/Aircraft manufacturer tell you.

WHAT??

I still don't get why my needles are so off center. 

7 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Your understanding of the ILS is accurate.

 

The problem lies with individual aircraft avionics setups. If you are using a dedicated VOR/ILS receiver and display head, there is no way to set the course and thus it is always accurate. Old HSI systems also didn't require dialing in the course needle but doing so made flying the approach make more sense. Anything with a blended navigation system/FMC will require you to know that system in order to know the correct procedure.

When I quit flying for a living, everything I flew did all that stuff automatically once you punched in the planned approach.

I can't answer specifically what is required in the A-10C II or whether it is modeled correctly in DCS.

 

 

So why are my needles so off center?

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Aviation instruction needs a serious reform. It is inherently difficult to understand and confusing by design. No wonder so many new and aspiring aviators wash out or perish. Theory is well described. Implementation and procedures instruction, kind of suck.

[=475FG= Dawger]

11 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

WHAT??

I still don't get why my needles are so off center. 

So why are my needles so off center?

I assume you mean the needles on the Attitude Indicator. I don't know the A-10 II but we shall assume the needles on the attitude indicator are a dual cue Flight Director. Dual Cue Flight Directors ARE NOT ILS needles.

A Flight Director tells you where to maneuver based upon the information you give it. You have told the flight director that the approach course is 000 or North. You are flying South. The FD thinks you are flying the wrong direction and is trying to fix it.

 

Single Cue versus Dual Cue Flight Directors

 

3 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Aviation instruction needs a serious reform. It is inherently difficult to understand and confusing by design. No wonder so many new and aspiring aviators wash out or perish. Theory is well described. Implementation and procedures instruction, kind of suck.

No, you just don't know what you are looking at and YouTube is NOT aviation instruction by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited January 1 by =475FG= Dawger

[DmitriKozlowsky]

29 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I assume you mean the needles on the Attitude Indicator. I don't know the A-10 II but we shall assume the needles on the attitude indicator are a dual cue Flight Director. Dual Cue Flight Directors ARE NOT ILS needles.

A Flight Director tells you where to maneuver based upon the information you give it. You have told the flight director that the approach course is 000 or North. You are flying South. The FD thinks you are flying the wrong direction and is trying to fix it.

 

Single Cue versus Dual Cue Flight Directors

 

No, you just don't know what you are looking at and YouTube is NOT aviation instruction by any stretch of the imagination.

I mean ILS needles. In fact thats what the YouTube video refers to ILS indicators, as 'needles'. YouTube is ot offcial instruction, but videos are from aviation schools. Good enough for flight sims. So I am still left with no answer, as to why my ILS needles so offcenter on centered stabilized approach to Khasab.

[razo+r]

3 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I mean ILS needles. In fact thats what the YouTube video refers to ILS indicators, as 'needles'. YouTube is ot offcial instruction, but videos are from aviation schools. Good enough for flight sims. So I am still left with no answer, as to why my ILS needles so offcenter on centered stabilized approach to Khasab.

What you refer to as "needles" is the flight director and NOT the ILS localizer and glideslope cues!

The glideslope is the little caret at the left of your ADI and the localizer is the CDI on your HSI. The two yellow needles on the ADI is the Flight director.

In your picture, you are on course according to the CDI. You are however too low according to the glideslope caret and the PAPI. The FD is telling you correctly to fly up because you are too low, but wrong to turn right because you haven't set the HSI course correct for the Flight Director.

38 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Aviation instruction needs a serious reform. It is inherently difficult to understand and confusing by design. No wonder so many new and aspiring aviators wash out or perish. Theory is well described. Implementation and procedures instruction, kind of suck.

If the instruction would suck, there would be many more incidents and accidents. I think in this case, as this is not professional instruction but just amateur, self instruction, the problem lies between the chair and the screen.

Edited January 1 by razo+r

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I mean ILS needles. In fact thats what the YouTube video refers to ILS indicators, as 'needles'. YouTube is ot offcial instruction, but videos are from aviation schools. Good enough for flight sims. So I am still left with no answer, as to why my ILS needles so offcenter on centered stabilized approach to Khasab.

The ‘needles’ on the ADI are a dual cue Flight Director. They are not driven by localizer and glideslope radio signals directly. 
 

As I said before, you don’t know what you are looking at. 
 

Aviation requires a building block approach to learning and flight simmers never get the first blocks and then blame everyone else when their sand castle washes away. 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

OMG! I ask again.

When I am lined up on approach within 10km to Khasab, why are my ILS needles so far off to the side? Why am I being presented with false information on ILS display in ADI?

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Somebody or something is just gaslighting me. I am not being given accurate instruction.

Here is screen  cap of ILS approach to Fajurah. ILS 111.50. All set, ILS enabled, ILS needles uncaged. Aircraft is on glideslope for good VFR landing. Gear down, flaps, down, heading set.

ILS needles are bullS! Just B.S. If this were CATII or CATIII I would be led to beleive that I am too low, and too the left of runway. I would maneuver and land long or to the left.

What makes absolutely ZERO, NONE, ZILCH sense to me, is why adjusting heading screws up the localizer needle. it would jump left to right abruptly, even as I am aligned. The system is lying to me. Noone here is making sense of it. ILS works off radio beams. I intersected those beams. I should not be seeing what I am seeing.

Edited January 2 by DmitriKozlowsky

[razo+r]

3 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

OMG! I ask again.

When I am lined up on approach within 10km to Khasab, why are my ILS needles so far off to the side? Why am I being presented with false information on ILS display in ADI?

Because user error.

 

45 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Somebody or something is just gaslighting me. I am not being given accurate instruction.

Here is screen  cap of ILS approach to Fajurah. ILS 111.50. All set, ILS enabled, ILS needles uncaged. Aircraft is on glideslope for good VFR landing. Gear down, flaps, down, heading set.

ILS needles are bullS! Just B.S. If this were CATII or CATIII I would be led to beleive that I am too low, and too the left of runway. I would maneuver and land long or to the left.

What makes absolutely ZERO, NONE, ZILCH sense to me, is why adjusting heading screws up the localizer needle. it would jump left to right abruptly, even as I am aligned. The system is lying to me. Noone here is making sense of it. ILS works off radio beams. I intersected those beams. I should not be seeing what I am seeing.

Ah, finally improvement, though not quite right.

The Flight Director and NOT the ILS needles tells you to fly right because you have set yet again the wrong course... As you can clearly see, the course should be something like 291 and not 287 like you set. That is why the Flight Director tells you to fly left. But according to the actual "ILS needle" on your HSI, you are perfectly on the localizer. You just have to look at the correct location... Setting the Course does not screw with the Localizer needle. I mean you literally have the proof in the very first picture you provided. You have set some random course yet the CDI clearly shows you that you are established om localizer. Your mistake is that you keep mistaken the Flight Director cues as localizer and glideslope, but they are NOT!!!

As for the Glideslope, remember ILS is 3 degrees and not 2 like in your picture. And it's not at the threshold but about 300-400m behind it.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

26 minutes ago, razo+r said:

Because user error.

 

Ah, finally improvement, though not quite right.

The Flight Director and NOT the ILS needles tells you to fly right because you have set yet again the wrong course... As you can clearly see, the course should be something like 291 and not 287 like you set. That is why the Flight Director tells you to fly left. But according to the actual "ILS needle" on your HSI, you are perfectly on the localizer. You just have to look at the correct location... Setting the Course does not screw with the Localizer needle. I mean you literally have the proof in the very first picture you provided. You have set some random course yet the CDI clearly shows you that you are established om localizer. Your mistake is that you keep mistaken the Flight Director cues as localizer and glideslope, but they are NOT!!!

As for the Glideslope, remember ILS is 3 degrees and not 2 like in your picture. And it's not at the threshold but about 300-400m behind it.

JHC! Still nothing. What tells me which course to set? ILS is turned ON. Flight Director? On the manual and on videos those yellow needles are described clearly as ILS needles. CENTER THE NEEDLES, thats what I am being told. What are you talking about? If pilot can screw up ILS just by maladjusting heading, what is the point of ILS guidance. I have no clue what the heck you are talking about. This makes no sense to me. Why would Heading be 291 , not 290 not 289 or 292? I am imagining if I all I see is gray, no visual ques. All I have is my GPS location on map and ILS 'needles'. I fly to intercept ILS beam as shown on map, and I get B.S. feedback on ADI. I need something actionable , not "Becouse you are doing it wrong."

[razo+r]

1 minute ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

JHC! Still nothing. What tells me which course to set?

The ILS chart or if you measure the magnetic heading of the runway.

1 minute ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

ILS is turned ON. Flight Director? On the manual and on videos those yellow needles are described clearly as ILS needles.

That is a generic video, not A-10C specific... Each aircraft is a bit different. If you want accurate instructions, look for specific A-10C instruction. I mean even a damn DCS A-10C tutorial is better suited and a generic ILS tutorial...

But those yellow needles are still the flight director. If you set a course they show you to fly that course and you can stow those needles with the "pointer" switch above the navigation mode panel.

1 minute ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

CENTER THE NEEDLES, thats what I am being told. What are you talking about?

Correct, center the needles. You however are looking at the wrong needles. I have already told you where you can find the Localizer and Glideslope needle.

1 minute ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

If pilot can screw up ILS just by maladjusting heading, what is the point of ILS guidance. I have no clue what the heck you are talking about. This makes no sense to me. Why would Heading be 291 , not 290 not 289 or 292?

You set the course to the runway heading. This way, you get reminded what heading the runway has, have correct steering info on the HSI (reversed or not reversed) and that errors such as in your first pictures do not occur. But like you have actually gotten correct, and this is properly simulates, setting the course does not affect the localizer needle. But it does affect aircraft systems like the Flight Director.

The heading is literally the exact runway heading. If the runway is heading 165, you set 165 and not 000, 164 or 166. 

1 minute ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I am imagining if I all I see is gray, no visual ques. All I have is my GPS location on map and ILS 'needles'. I fly to intercept ILS beam as shown on map, and I get B.S. feedback on ADI. I need something actionable , not "Becouse you are doing it wrong."

Well, we have told you numerous actionable things but you refuse to do them so far. You mistake the Flight Director for the ILS needles, you set the wrong course, keep flying too low and try to apply a generic tutorial to an aircraft that has one or another difference.

[=475FG= Dawger]

Don’t use the ADI for the ILS. 

Use the HSI only. 
 

Once you understand flying the approach with only the. HSI for course guidance, you might begin to understand the Flight Director on the ADI. 
 

And learn how use an instrument approach chart to draw out the relevant information. 

Edited January 2 by =475FG= Dawger

[Minsky]

Here are two important outtakes from the real-world A-10 manual:

First, setting the ILS approach course is mandatory, period.

Second, if the computed steering guidance (incorrectly referred to as "ILS needles") becomes unreliable, the pilot should disregard it and fly the raw ILS signals (outlined in red).

P.S. On your last screenshot you are about 150 feet below the glideslope. Of course it wants you to climb.