Best VR Headset (upgrade from Reverb G2)?

[Raketenfrosch]

Hey,

Love DCS VR, but I hate the tiny sweetspot of the G2.

Furthermore I would like to replace mouse-control by any pointer system or handtracking.

And G2 will not be usable in future to missing WMR support?

Should I go with the Quest 3 with handtracking now - is it a great upgrade or should I wait for next generation of headsets with eye tracking?

 

Thanks 4 your thoughts

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Have a look through this subforum  

There are plenty of threads on this exact topic already.

[Gun Jam]

do you have a price range? I hear good things about the Vario Xr4 and the sominum Vr 1 they both have large sweet spots and decent FOV

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, Raketenfrosch said:

And G2 will not be usable in future to missing WMR support?

It has gotten removed from Windows 11 version 24H2. You can use it for a year more by locking the PC down to Windows 11 23H2 or by staying on Windows 10, but both are not advisable for the long term, as Windows 10 will stop getting security fixes at the end of the new year, and the same is true for Windows 11 23H2.

So I would upgrade before then.

2 hours ago, Raketenfrosch said:

Should I go with the Quest 3 with handtracking now - is it a great upgrade or should I wait for next generation of headsets with eye tracking?

I would upgrade and not wait, as there is no sign of an affordable next gen headset with eye tracking or any other features that matter for PCVR. So you'll just be waiting with no clear end.

But note that handtracking on the Quest is very mediocre and most people seem to consider it unusable for DCS. Instead, you can get a SlugMouse or PointCTRL device which actually works. The former requires a Quest since it uses the Quest tracking, while the latter has its own sensor, so it also works with the Pimax Crystal Light.

My advice is to pick between the Quest 3 and the Pimax Crystal Light, unless the price is no big deal. But even then it is questionable whether more expensive headsets really add more than their downsides take away again.

PS. The Quest 3 has the least issue with a sweet spot. The Pimax has better peak quality, but also some serious quality control issues. So more risk and more potential reward with that one. But it's more likely that you get things right with the Quest 3.

[Raketenfrosch]

Are there performance differences between the G2 and the Quest 3 in DCS?

They have almost the same resolution, but use different software.

I have an AMD RyzonAMD Ryzen 5 5600X 6x 4.6GHz + 4070ti + 32 GB RAM

Is there any obligatory accessory I need to buy with the Q3 for DCS?

 

[jurinko]

4 hours ago, Raketenfrosch said:

Are there performance differences between the G2 and the Quest 3 in DCS?

They have almost the same resolution, but use different software.

I have an AMD RyzonAMD Ryzen 5 5600X 6x 4.6GHz + 4070ti + 32 GB RAM

Is there any obligatory accessory I need to buy with the Q3 for DCS?

 

You can set the frequency in Quest 3 to 72Hz and up the resolution (60 Hz with G2 is unbearable and 90Hz is demanding).
I have 5600x, 4080, 64GB RAM and I am very satisfied going from G2 to Q3. I have most of the settings on high(est), DLSS Quality on and PD 1.5.

For me, the most needed trick for totally smooth performance is to use Meta OpenXR runtime and Turbo ON in OpenXR Toolkit.

[Grodin]

21 hours ago, Raketenfrosch said:

Hey,

Love DCS VR, but I hate the tiny sweetspot of the G2.

Furthermore I would like to replace mouse-control by any pointer system or handtracking.

And G2 will not be usable in future to missing WMR support?

Should I go with the Quest 3 with handtracking now - is it a great upgrade or should I wait for next generation of headsets with eye tracking?

 

Thanks 4 your thoughts

In my opinion don't get a quest 3. Its an absolute mess.

- Update might completely brick your unit, lots of info about this online
- You need virtual desktop and compatible router for it to get somewhat OK pcvr experience, link cable is junk (No AV1 codec with USB link, many people have issues with the quest microphone not working well over USB link, the headset will struggle to keep battery charge during gaming if you have to plug it to a usb port instead of a charger etc etc)
- Having it plugged in your pc might have a bug where the headset infinitely keeps restarting thus never charging, this bug has been for years, check on the meta forums
- Another bug for years is it keeps complaining about dirt/water in the USB port preventing charging even with new headsets and new cables, also lots of info on meta forums

Just to mention a few. I absolutely hate the quest 3.

For performance you pretty much need a 4080 to be able to run 100% native resolution with MSAA 2x for an enjoyable graphics. DLSS/DLAA/TAA is a ghosting and blurry mess so you don't want that.

Hand tracking really works only with the point control, other means of hand tracking just don't work well. Until you get that i suggest setting up your mouse close to the joystick and/or second mouse near the throttle.

Crystal light or crystal super would be my choice. Displayport connection is infinitely better than transferring compressed frames over USB or wifi.

Edited January 9 by Grodin

[diego999]

I've been using a Quest 3 for almost a year. No issues so far and I'm very satisfied. It's a solid headset for the price.

I tried Virtual Desktop but I can't match the visual quality of the link cable. Having the Q3 plugged while you play has the additional advantage of conserving battery (mine never goes below 80%) and this is using a generic $15 cable. No expensive Meta cable, no powered USB port, nothing.

[Aapje]

10 hours ago, Raketenfrosch said:

Is there any obligatory accessory I need to buy with the Q3 for DCS?

I think that a better headstrap is mandatory for almost everyone. And get a high speed USB-C cable that is long enough. Having a powered USB hub is a good idea to keep the charge up.

In general I would advise a powered USB hub because we often connect many peripherals to the PC and then it's very easy for the ports to run out of power, which can cause all kinds of issues with the USB devices.

 

@Grodin

Meta sometimes has updates that brick headsets, which is why I turned off automatic updates and wait for the updates to get forced onto the headset. By then, any issues will have been dealt with. Of course, if you get a Crystal Light, then the issue is poor quality control and sometimes rather poor support.

A high-speed USB cable works fine for me. You can set a higher bit rate through the debug tool. AV1 puts a high load on the CPU and the bit rate is so limited with Link that it seems better not to use it.

I keep charge sufficiently with a powered USB hub. Not sure why you are blaming the Quest for it not keeping charge when you plug it into an USB port that provides relatively little power. Do you expect Meta to come to your house and solder a higher power USB port onto your motherboard?

I've never had the infinite restarting thing. I've never had the dirt/water issue either. If that happens with a new headset, get a replacement headset. I never had an issue with the audio either, aside from Windows messing up the audio device.

I have a very hard time believing that you have been hit with all these issues. It looks more like you've been collecting all the horror stories for just one product, while conveniently ignoring the very many horror stories about the product you recommend. That is not a fair and balanced way to judge these devices.

Edited January 9 by Aapje

[Raketenfrosch]

Pimax has 80 $ payback* for Reverb G2 users, you need to send them vendors bill.

 

*Discount for purchase at Pimax store or, if purchased from other vendor, discount code for Pimax Play store.

https://pimax.com/pages/reverb-g2-switch-to-pimax-crystal-light?utm_source=website&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=G2web

Edited January 10 by Raketenfrosch

[Grodin]

23 hours ago, Aapje said:

I think that a better headstrap is mandatory for almost everyone. And get a high speed USB-C cable that is long enough. Having a powered USB hub is a good idea to keep the charge up.

In general I would advise a powered USB hub because we often connect many peripherals to the PC and then it's very easy for the ports to run out of power, which can cause all kinds of issues with the USB devices.

 

@Grodin

Meta sometimes has updates that brick headsets, which is why I turned off automatic updates and wait for the updates to get forced onto the headset. By then, any issues will have been dealt with. Of course, if you get a Crystal Light, then the issue is poor quality control and sometimes rather poor support.

A high-speed USB cable works fine for me. You can set a higher bit rate through the debug tool. AV1 puts a high load on the CPU and the bit rate is so limited with Link that it seems better not to use it.

I keep charge sufficiently with a powered USB hub. Not sure why you are blaming the Quest for it not keeping charge when you plug it into an USB port that provides relatively little power. Do you expect Meta to come to your house and solder a higher power USB port onto your motherboard?

I've never had the infinite restarting thing. I've never had the dirt/water issue either. If that happens with a new headset, get a replacement headset. I never had an issue with the audio either, aside from Windows messing up the audio device.

I have a very hard time believing that you have been hit with all these issues. It looks more like you've been collecting all the horror stories for just one product, while conveniently ignoring the very many horror stories about the product you recommend. That is not a fair and balanced way to judge these devices.

 

AV1 Encoding is done by GPU, not CPU, so i have no idea what you are on about. Link bitrate has nothing to do with this either because the quest link software does not even support AV1 encoding at all, that is what the Virtual Desktop is for. I never said i have problem with the audio, it's a problem with the quest link microphone which kills the microphone quality for voice comms etc, but that is fixed by virtual desktop. Was reported in 2023 and still not fixed.

Poor support? Try and get any support from Meta, i dare you. See the only support you will ever get from them is "Send us a PM" then they tell you to factory reset the headset, come back to your thread few months later and ask "Did this fix you issue?".

The issues i have are very common, i don't have any of the more rare issues, just the typical ones. USB port debis error was first reported to meta around 10/2023 and it has still not been fixed. The restart loop when not using a powered usb hub was also reported in 2023 and still not fixed, supposedly it is caused because windows detects quest that is powered off as unknown storage device and fails to negotiate the charging protocol or something like that, possibly has something to do with the fact that quest 3 doesn't properly support any actual fast charge protocols but instead uses an interesting mix (mess) of their own protocols that the quest supplied charger understands but many motherboards do not.

And no, i don't need them to give me a more powerful USB port but they could learn a thing or two from actual PCVR headsets that have displayport and power connectors.

Sure Pimax has issues too, unfortunately at the moment for PCVR you just have to find an option that sucks less than others.

 

Playing standalone VR games quest 3 is great and i love playing those on it but for PCVR i would absolutely stay with the G2 Reverb if it wasnt for the tiny small sweet spot it has. For PCVR the only redeeming quality of the Q3 imo is the great edge to edge clarity of the lenses.

But i'm happy you've been enjoying yours, just like Pimax there are good and bad samples.

Edited January 10 by Grodin

[Aapje]

3 hours ago, Grodin said:

AV1 Encoding is done by GPU, not CPU, so i have no idea what you are on about.

I meant the CPU in the Quest. It clearly takes a lot of resources to decode AV1, since there is a lot of latency, and even then the bit rate is limited to a level far lower than when using H. 264. So it's pretty pointless to use it, if you use a good cable.

I just use H.264 at 500 Mbs.

3 hours ago, Grodin said:

And no, i don't need them to give me a more powerful USB port but they could learn a thing or two from actual PCVR headsets that have displayport and power connectors.

You're not making much sense here, since DP doesn't supply power. The Crystal Light has a powered USB cable, so that's effectively the same as using a powered USB cable with the Quest. And there are dedicated PCVR headsets with a USB C port like the Bigscreen Beyond.

And the reason why the Quest doesn't have Displayport over USB is not because they have to 'learn a thing or two,' but because they made a conscious decision to cut costs. They are selling a headset that is primarily used for standalone, but it is still good value for PCVR.

3 hours ago, Grodin said:

But i'm happy you've been enjoying yours, just like Pimax there are good and bad samples.

Yeah, I haven't really had any issues.

[nessuno0505]

I'm a q3 owner after a reverb g2

it's a fair upgrade and even if it's not perfect for pcvr maybe you can have a good experience with a less pricey VGA than € 2400 of the 5090

very good lenses compensate for slightly lower resolution and some minor artifacts (if compared to other dedicated pcvr headsets)

and you add the standalone experience from meta which is one of the most complete on the market (if you like that)

[Youtch]

I am also in need to retire my reverb G2. I am trying to make a decision based on performance as i will not be able to afford a 4090 or 5090.

I am poundering if it is better to invest in a headset with eye tracking to benefit from Dynamic Foveated Rendering, or go with Crystal light with Fixed Foveated rendering.

Any advice in term of experience and performance difference?

I was initially assuming that it was better to invest a little bit more in a eye tracking headset and keep a 4080/5080, than spending a splurge into a 5090 struggling to render the full screen, but i might be wrong.

I also cannot get myself to give any money to Meta and its ecosystem, for as good as Quest might be, as I despise its entire ecosystem.

Many thanks in advance for sharing your expertise,

Y.

 

[Aapje]

@Youtch

I find your question a bit confusing, since a 5080 is probably going to be quite close to a 4090. I get the feeling that you are talking yourself into a problem.

It's pretty certain that you will have much better visuals if you get a 5080 and a Crystal Light, than with the G2 and the presumably slower GPU that you have. So why do you think that is not good enough?

Let's say that you get the regular Crystal instead of the Light. You'll gain eye tracking, but you'll have a much less comfortable headset, and have to deal with charging the battery a lot. And most importantly, the price difference is so large that you can easily get a second hand 4090 instead. And then you won't have the comfort and battery issues.

Or lets say that you get a 2nd hand Quest Pro. You'll gain eye tracking, but the quality of the screen is lower. So you gain FPS, but at the expense of visuals. But then you can also just turn the visuals down a bit with the Crystal Light and do without the eye tracking.

So my advice is to get out of this mindset that there is something that you are missing out on and instead get the best setup that fits within your budget and restrictions.

[Raketenfrosch]

I was just reading several "Q3 vs. Crystal Light" experiences on Reddit etc.

I am wondering how many DCS and sim-players previously using the Reverb G2 are disappointed of their new Q3 and Crystal Light.

[Youtch]

I guess i didn t express myself correctly, hence the confusion.

Let s forget about the 5000RTX serie that is not going to be widely available at a reasonable price anytime soon anyway.

I am not buying 2nd hand GPU, learning from previous mistake, with card not functionning properly, either abused through OC or through bitcoin mining.

My question is therefore the following:

Where is it more worth investing 1000 bucks for upgrading?

What is the best value for the buck in term of gain of performance/visual?

More GPU power making the jump from a 4080 to a 4090, to get more raw fps, with a Crystal light

OR

Getting a better headset with eye tracking like somnium instead of crystal light for instance, to be able through Dynamic Foveated rendering to lower the need for more raw gps power, using a 4080.

Both correspond more or less to a 1000 euro jump.

I play only DCS and IL2 in VR, amd have no interest for non VR, nor any other game.

I personally really hated the G2 ultra narrow sweet spot and narrow fov, it was my first headset and very cheap when i bought it, so it was a good introduction into VR, but not something i m willing to repeat.

Quest is totally out of question because of Meta.

Y.

 

Edited January 12 by Youtch

[Raketenfrosch]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Youtch:

My question is therefore the following:

Where is it more worth investing 1000 bucks for upgrading?

Vote +1 for new headset

4080 to 4090 are a few FPS, but still on the old G2 VR headset.

[Aapje]

@Youtch

You are definitely not getting a Somnium for only 1000 euro more than a Crystal Light.

I don't think that the value is there for anything but the Crystal Light and Quest 3, where the former is more designed for PCVR and can scale better to higher quality. Keep in mind that VR advances a lot more quickly than GPUs, so the depreciation on a headset is going to be worse as well.

If you have a 4080 already, my advice is to get the Crystal Light and then enjoy that for a while. It should be a large step up from the G2. Do you have to spend that extra 1000 euro right now? If not, I would just go fly and enjoy yourself. A 4080 + Crystal Light is an excellent combination. Any further upgrades are just going to be rather costly for relatively low gains.

If you keep that 1k in your pocket, you are ready to take any opportunities that may come along, like a surprise headset that is great for simming, a possible 5080 Ti, a good 5000-series refresh, or just upgrade your card next generation for a substantial better gain for the same money.

Edited January 12 by Aapje

[Youtch]

Thanks for your answer.

Your point about different depreciations, as per how fast the technologies advance relatively, is very valid.

I don t have a 4080, I currently have a 3080 and it is failing, and i will have to replace it. 

So, I am in a bad spot of having to upgrade both, my GPU (and probably my PC in general) and my headset (thanks to window 11 update), hence the question where to put more money, if investing in a super powerfull GPU or in a higher end headset with eye tracking.

Regardless of what is available on the market, it also boils down to a question i asked in another thread: what is the reduction in % of pixel rendered with Dynamic Foveated rendering vs Fixed Foveated rendering for the eyes to perceive a similar clarity (although i know that in one case the head must move entirely, while the other case it is just the eyes moving).

[Chief_Biv]

10 minutes ago, Youtch said:

Thanks for your answer.

Your point about different depreciations, as per how fast the technologies advance relatively, is very valid.

I don t have a 4080, I currently have a 3080 and it is failing, and i will have to replace it. 

So, I am in a bad spot of having to upgrade both, my GPU (and probably my PC in general) and my headset (thanks to window 11 update), hence the question where to put more money, if investing in a super powerfull GPU or in a higher end headset with eye tracking.

Regardless of what is available on the market, it also boils down to a question i asked in another thread: what is the reduction in % of pixel rendered with Dynamic Foveated rendering vs Fixed Foveated rendering for the eyes to perceive a similar clarity (although i know that in one case the head must move entirely, while the other case it is just the eyes moving).

I was forced to get a new headset mid last year when my G2 cable failed. I also only have a RTX3080. I purchased the Crystal (OG). The eye tracking has enabled me to avoid upgrading my PC for the last 12 months and I reckon for another 18months at least. Spending money on an eye tracking headset made sense for me and if I was in the position of purchasing now I would rather get a Super than a Light. However, sorry to hear that your 3080 is failing. You may as well get the latest GPU if forced to and that will give you options to consider the Crystal Light.

The OP had a 4070Ti and would have benefited from eye tracking except that his CPU is not as strong and probably would not cope with Quadviews.

[Youtch]

Thanks for your answer, I was also considering getting an original crystal instead of the crystal light for eye tracking, despite the battery problems.

[Tensorial_Architect]

(Previous or current owner of the Rift, Index, Rift S, G1, G2, Aero, Crystal, Crystal Light, Quest 3, Quest Pro)

For your average G2 owner, .... and I really, ... really, ... hate to say this (no fan of Zuckerberg or any of his ventures), ... your best bet will be with the Quest 3. With the Link cable and Mbucchia's Quad Views but in Fixed Foveated mode (the Quest 3 has no eye tracking), you will receive a visual upgrade. Generally speaking, .... s#@! will just work. As a daily driver for the average to above average simmer with all the constant changes to the VR realm, you will receive the best overall experience (especially if you have a job, a family, children, etc (meaning you don't have ten hours to get six different client programs (Oculus Tray Tools, OpenXR Toolkit, Companion, etc ...) to work together) .... and fly 30 hours or less per month in DCS).

After a great deal of experience with Pimax over almost five years now, ... their products simply have too many issues. If the planets are in alignment and you have sacrificed two goats at your local Temple of Zeus, ... the views are awesome. ... For three days, ... until a new update suddenly induces stuttering again or some other snafu appears. The Crystal is even better than the Aero when everything is a go, ... but it is only a go 3.4 hours out of each month. The Crystal is also the only headset that is actually heavy enough imo to induce strain and pain after a few hours.

At the very high end, ... day in and day out, ... the outdated Aero and now, the Quest Pro are my go tos. The pancake lenses of the Pro really do make a difference spotting enemy aircraft for A2A even over the much higher PD of the Aero. I also like that I do not need base stations with the Quest Pro and that it is only headset with controllers that actually beat out the Valve Index knuckles. If you train it correctly (you need to enable developer mode and add some custom AI software), the Pro can recognize hand gestures so well that those VR finger devices and gloves which are advertised here in the DCS VR subforum are no longer needed. You can click everything in the cockpit and turn every dial on the F-18 with zero problems with almost 100% accuracy.

Edited January 13 by Tensorial_Architect

[Qcumber]

2 hours ago, Tensorial_Architect said:

Pro can recognize hand gestures so well that those VR finger devices and gloves which are advertised here in the DCS VR subforum are no longer needed

I've tried hand tracking on the QP but never found it very useful in DCS. Very hit and miss regarding cockpit clicks and dial turning. How do you get it working well? 

Edited January 13 by Qcumber

[Tensorial_Architect]

When I first tried hand tracking with the Pro, .... it was very, ... mehh. After a bit of research, there was a project up by Chris Handzlik and another developer for AI hand tracking and integration with Unity. If you try to go this route, you will have to enable developer mode for your Quest Pro (pain in the a##) and then understand a bit about how Oculus handles things under the hood.

I don't see his exact AI project at the moment but he has the Unity integration for hand tracking here:

https://github.com/handzlikchris/Unity.QuestRemoteHandTracking

It was a bit of a pain to add the AI package and get everything working (not for the non-developer or those not familiar with coding) but once I did, it was wonderful. It took about 20 hours for the AI to better capture my exact hand motions (it works similar to speech recognition code). Now that I have it fully trained, ... I can turn all the dials and switches within any cockpit in DCS almost as well as if I was sitting in the aircraft in real life.

(He may have just taken the AI package down to rework it a bit. Contact him and see what he says.)