AMD Radeon RX 9000 series GPUs

[LucShep]

23 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

Unless AMD does a pretty big pivot from what they've saying, I wouldn't expect a 9070XTX. AMD have said since RDNA4 was announced that they aren't targeting high-end with it. 

If RT performance is a priority, then your best hope is to snag an nVidia card at MSRP or pay inflated scalper price. If RT isn't a pivotal, then nearly 5070ti raster performance at half price ain't bad. 

They aren't going to topple nVidia, but definetly a strong showing at the time when nVidia keeps stepping on their own *beep*. 

We won't see an 9070XTX 20GB or 24GB because the previous iteration was a costly failure in sales numbers for AMD.
It's more expensive to produce and even harder to sell, only to be left forgotten on the shelves - as the piles of older 7900XT and 7900XTX available and not selling clearly show.
Maybe if the RX9070 series are a resounding success they will re-evaluate the rumoured (and abandoned) 9070XTX 32GB prototype aimed at content creators.

People need to understand that GPU manufacturers don't even consider anything over 16GB VRAM to be necessary for any sort of PC gaming, regardless of resolution, 2D or VR.

It's not the GPU manufacturers fault, or ours as paying customers, that one single game uses over 16GB VRAM and over 40GB or RAM with certain modules and maps in MP.
The fact is DCS is a total anomality in the gaming world, even in the niche simming area, with its silly high hardware demands.

To pay absurd ammounts of money for a particular feature (abnormal ammounts of VRAM) on an overpriced GPU market, and all for just one game title, makes no sense.
The issue comes from the game, itself and alone, and the game developers (ED in this case) have to readjust priorities and their product to worldwide market shifting tendencies, also affected by raise in inflation and taxes on most countries.  The imediate reality is, the days of ≥20GB GPUs for DCS users are pretty much gone and over.
 

Edited March 7 by LucShep

[Aapje]

58 minutes ago, EightyDuce said:

Unless AMD does a pretty big pivot from what they've saying, I wouldn't expect a 9070XTX. AMD have said since RDNA4 was announced that they aren't targeting high-end with it. 

I see the move to UDNA as the way for AMD to return to high-end cards. This would then be the same as what Nvidia does. All the best binned GB102-chips go into the professional cards that sell for big money, and the poorer chips get sold as 5090s and 5090Ds.

This reduces risk, since if the professional cards sell poorly, you can sell more of these chips to gamers, and vice versa. And it also saves on development.

I do think that it will drive up the prices for the lower end, as the chips will get bigger due to the professional stuff on the chip.

 

[Aapje]

23 minutes ago, LucShep said:

The imediate reality is, the days of ≥20GB GPUs for DCS users are pretty much gone and over.

I don't really agree with this.

First of all, due to the AI boom, there is great demand for high-VRAM cards, and Nvidia has released their top tier card with a very large bus and 32 GB. So I'm not sure where this idea comes from that we won't get high-VRAM cards.

The big issue for the 5080 and down is the lack of 3GB VRAM modules, combined with Nvidia's desire for more economical bus sizes for these cheaper chips. With the newer production nodes, connectivity scales very poorly, so a large bus is getting more expensive to make.

Just like the 40-series was extremely poor and the Super-refresh was OK, we may see a decent Super-refresh for the 50-series, with a 24 GB 5080 Super and a 18 GB 5070 Super.

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

I don't really agree with this.

First of all, due to the AI boom, there is great demand for high-VRAM cards, and Nvidia has released their top tier card with a very large bus and 32 GB. So I'm not sure where this idea comes from that we won't get high-VRAM cards.

The big issue for the 5080 and down is the lack of 3GB VRAM modules, combined with Nvidia's desire for more economical bus sizes for these cheaper chips. With the newer production nodes, connectivity scales very poorly, so a large bus is getting more expensive to make.

Just like the 40-series was extremely poor and the Super-refresh was OK, we may see a decent Super-refresh for the 50-series, with a 24 GB 5080 Super and a 18 GB 5070 Super.

Okay, let's consider a supposed launch of an RTX5080S/Ti 24GB sometime in near future.
The cost, how much will its street price be, and that's if ever available in stock?  ....2.500,00+ EUR/USD? ...3.000,00+ EUR/USD? 
Because that's a reality one should now count for, if hoping for that GPU to come. (that, and also burning connectors, and broken ROPs, etc ) 

Desire has nothing to do with feasability.

The idea is simple and has been discussed in other forums. And it comes from the lack of availability and unpractical prices of highest-end GPUs for PC gamers.
Check how it is right now. It was expensive before, but now it became impossible, well beyond "enthusiast" buyer level. 

How many RTX5090 users are you seeing in these forums?  My bet is they're no more but a handfull (probably not even that much).
Are people really hell bent in buying from the remaining overpriced old stock of AMD 7900XT/XTX?   I don't think so.
And how many here are buying RTX4090s now priced at nearly double the MSRP?  None?
Are people really lining up to buy 4 and 5 year old used RTX3090s?  I really don't think so.

If we're talking content creators, they don't make part of the gaming market, won't make such GPUs feasable for a market that is inclusive to PC gamers, not even to DCS users.
GPUs made for them will be near unattainable to gamers.

The AI market is its own thing, doesn't really fit in the same puzzle, 1) because those usually are for profit and 2) are willing to buy GPUs in bulk or professional models (Nvidia H200, etc) - maybe even willing to smuggle them, if following rumours. It's the "Mining Craze - Part II".  They won't positively push the market for gaming GPUs as we know it.

Again, desire has nothing to do with feasability.
The reality now is, people buying a brand new GPU will go, at max, for a 5080, 5070Ti and RX9070XT, all of which are 16GB VRAM.
People willing to pay for new GPUs have their limits, economy dictates it. For any game developer to ignore today's reality is to disregard the current and near future userbase.
 

Edited March 6 by LucShep

[EightyDuce]

Well, good or bad, seems that they were in stock for about 20-25 min; would be curious to see what actual stock numbers were across retailers. My brother grabbed a 9070XT from Newegg to replace his 3070, maybe I can get him to try DCS for me.  order was canceled by newegg, he's now driving to MicroCenter. 

HUB reported that they heard from retailers that AMD is kicking them $50 rebates to bring MSRP to where it is now, suggesting for potential increase in price down the road. IMO that would be a bad move and would likely wipe out whatever good social capital they make with this launch. 

Edited March 6 by EightyDuce
Edit: disregard... newegg canceled his order due to insufficient stock. 😂

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, LucShep said:

Okay, let's consider a supposed launch of an RTX5080 24GB sometime in near future.
How much will it cost, and that's if ever available in stock?  ....2.500,00+ EUR/USD? ...3.000,00+ EUR/USD? 

We already saw with the 4080 that $1200 was too much for a high supply situation, and they had to reduce the price for the Super. So you are now speculating in a way that doesn't make much sense if you look at recent history. Common sense says that if they flood the market with 5080s, pricing needs to drop close to MSRP for them to sell in large numbers. 2500 or 3000 dollar/euros would be utterly unrealistic. With the 5080 being so little faster than the 4080, they may have to toss in that extra VRAM to stir up demand, because common sense says that demand will be lower than for the 4080.

I think that you are catastrophizing, extrapolating short term issues that are almost certainly temporary, into a belief that things will always be bad.

Computer parts have always experienced shortages/excess supply, and thus high prices or very low prices. Either you adapt to that reality, or you accept that you pay more if you buy in a period of shortages.

I've been there, buying a CPU from a dodgy guy selling stuff from his home, to get a good price.

Quote

Are people really lining up to buy 4 and 5 year old used RTX3090s?  I really don't think so.

I think they are, actually. I see pricing around 700-800 euro in my country and sold prices of $800-$1000 on the American Ebay.

In general, second hand pricing for GPUs seems heavily influenced by the pricing of new cards.

Quote

The reality now is, people will buy, at max, a 5080, 5070Ti and RX9070XT, all of which are 16GB VRAM.

That's not actually reality, but merely your narrative. Fact is that there are a decent number people who are willing to spend big on gaming, although of course not a massive amount. But they do exist and are a factor.

Quote

For any game developer to ignore today's reality is to disregard the current and near future userbase.

Yes, of course there is always the reality that a game needs sufficient buyers, and that the higher the demands of the game, the more people get excluded. But on the other hand, optimization cost money as well, and lowering quality results in fewer buyers as well.

So it's always a balancing act. 

And if you want to look at the future in a reasonable way, you actually have to look at where the industry is going, and it is a fact that 3 GB modules are on the roadmap. The plan is for 3 GB (24 Gb) modules to be introduced somewhere between now and 2026, and them to completely move over to 3 GB modules in 2026:

It's logical that in the lead-up to bigger modules, we will have cards with relatively low VRAM, or with suboptimal clamshell designs. But I predict that we'll see the 3 GB modules being used for the 2026 generation at the latest, because that is what the roadmaps say.

But it makes a lot of sense for Nvidia to release Super cards with a VRAM-upgrade in a year, since this allows Nvidia to increase demand halfway through the life of the product, rather than have to accept that demand will drop off very sharply. And with the 50-series being so poor, I bet that they will need that Super-refresh.

Edited March 6 by Aapje

[LucShep]

3 hours ago, Aapje said:

We already saw with the 4080 that $1200 was too much for a high supply situation, and they had to reduce the price for the Super. So you are now speculating in a way that doesn't make much sense if you look at recent history. Common sense says that if they flood the market with 5080s, pricing needs to drop close to MSRP for them to sell in large numbers. 2500 or 3000 dollar/euros would be utterly unrealistic. With the 5080 being so little faster than the 4080, they may have to toss in that extra VRAM to stir up demand, because common sense says that demand will be lower than for the 4080.

I think that you are catastrophizing, extrapolating short term issues that are almost certainly temporary, into a belief that things will always be bad.

Computer parts have always experienced shortages/excess supply, and thus high prices or very low prices. Either you adapt to that reality, or you accept that you pay more if you buy in a period of shortages.

I've been there, buying a CPU from a dodgy guy selling stuff from his home, to get a good price.

I think they are, actually. I see pricing around 700-800 euro in my country and sold prices of $800-$1000 on the American Ebay.

In general, second hand pricing for GPUs seems heavily influenced by the pricing of new cards.

That's not actually reality, but merely your narrative. Fact is that there are a decent number people who are willing to spend big on gaming, although of course not a massive amount. But they do exist and are a factor.

Yes, of course there is always the reality that a game needs sufficient buyers, and that the higher the demands of the game, the more people get excluded. But on the other hand, optimization cost money as well, and lowering quality results in fewer buyers as well.

So it's always a balancing act. 

And if you want to look at the future in a reasonable way, you actually have to look at where the industry is going, and it is a fact that 3 GB modules are on the roadmap. The plan is for 3 GB (24 Gb) modules to be introduced somewhere between now and 2026, and them to completely move over to 3 GB modules in 2026:

It's logical that in the lead-up to bigger modules, we will have cards with relatively low VRAM, or with suboptimal clamshell designs. But I predict that we'll see the 3 GB modules being used for the 2026 generation at the latest, because that is what the roadmaps say.

But it makes a lot of sense for Nvidia to release Super cards with a VRAM-upgrade in a year, since this allows Nvidia to increase demand halfway through the life of the product, rather than have to accept that demand will drop off very sharply. And with the 50-series being so poor, I bet that they will need that Super-refresh.

I'm dramatizing?  "merely a narrative"! 

Have a look then.......

   

That's a search engine showing what is in stock and at the lowest price, in the whole territory peninsular and insular of good old Portugal nation.

Please don't tell me it's a country specific thing, because I'm seeing the exact same thing on Spanish, French and Italian stores. 
Even in the other side of the ocean at USA ones (Newegg, etc).

And I'm sorry if I'm not able to positively fantasize on future possibilities, speculation and roadplans, which may or may not be viable or actually better solutions in the end, when the present indicates unstable predictions. If that much, it'll get worse before it gets any better.  I'm sorry if it makes for an unpleasant read.
Like the previously hyped GDDR7, for example - it runs so hot that (atm) they can't push it enough to make a real practical difference to gaming compared to GDDR6X, so barely any difference but it's even more expensive now (not what an upgrade is supposed to be).  

Also, I don't abide to the richest userbase that doesn't even count as the PC gaming market, because they'll always buy what they want, regardless of price, global economy, or even a likely recession. Those (at max) are not even 5% from the total userbase/market, like what hypercar millionaires are to the automobile market. 
Not even worth placing them in the global picture, IMO.

I prefer to take every positive from what can be taken in the current bad moment, one that we still hope (months if not years later?) to be temporary. For example like with the AMD RX9070/XT right now - they are undoubtedly the best performance GPUs in value that one can buy (brand new) at the moment (how long it'll last is unknown), likely as good as it gets in many months. Even if they're just the "least of all evils" in a market that is absolutely corrupted by very poor releases in the last few years.
 

Edited March 6 by LucShep
spelling(?)

[Nightdare]

3 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

Unless AMD does a pretty big pivot from what they've saying, I wouldn't expect a 9070XTX. AMD have said since RDNA4 was announced that they aren't targeting high-end with it.

2 hours ago, LucShep said:

We won't see an 9070XTX 20GB or 24GB because the previous iteration was a costly failure in sales numbers for AMD.

 

You are forgetting the very costly yet low performing 5080

This isn't the 'high end' it's the last regular consumer card, AND a performance AMD may be able to match, if not undercut at slightly lower (Mostly RT) performance at a MUCH better price

[Qcumber]

It looks like the only reason to buy a 5070ti is for DLSS. That means about £200 extra  just for DLSS! I have ordered a 5070ti but am now considering sending it back and buying an Rx 9070xt (if I can get one). Impossible to get one today. Hopefully the stock supply will keep up with demand over the next couple of weeks. 

 

[LucShep]

22 minutes ago, Qcumber said:

It looks like the only reason to buy a 5070ti is for DLSS. That means about £200 extra  just for DLSS! I have ordered a 5070ti but am now considering sending it back and buying an Rx 9070xt (if I can get one). Impossible to get one today. Hopefully the stock supply will keep up with demand over the next couple of weeks. 

 

The 9070XT are selling like hotcakes, any and all models it seems.
From the four main stores in my area that I see listing them, only two have a few units available, most models already out of stock (and no prevision date for resupply).
And that's just hours after they went online.

Not sure if it's same in your area but, if you managed to get that RTX5070Ti for a decent price, and want a new GPU very soon, then perhaps it may be better to keep it.
 

Edited March 6 by LucShep

[Qcumber]

1 hour ago, LucShep said:

The 9070XT are selling like hotcakes, any and all models it seems.
From the four main stores in my area that I see listing them, only two have a few units available, most models already out of stock (and no prevision date for resupply).
And that's just hours after they went online.

Not sure if it's same in your area but, if you managed to get that RTX5070Ti for a decent price, and want a new GPU very soon, then perhaps it may be better to keep it.
 

I got the 5070ti for £799 (MSI Ventus OC; MSRP here is £729). It arrives next week (I hope). I got it from Amazon so have 30 day return.

I'll see what the AMD stock is like next week. The Rx 9070xt base price in the UK is £569. They all went from online stores immediately and all the store servers crashed. I was ready and refreshed the second it turned 1400 and managed to get one in my basket once but then could not check out. I think it's easier to get tickets for Glastonbury festival! 

I have owned AMD cards before and have liked them. However, DLSS is growing on me and it does not sound like FSR4 will come to DCS anytime soon. 

Update:

Not good for future buying. Those who bought today were very lucky. 

https://overclock3d.net/news/gpu-displays/retailers-confirm-limited-msrp-pricing-for-amd-rx-9070-series-gpus/

 

Edited March 6 by Qcumber

[Pilotasso]

8 hours ago, Aapje said:

Not really sure why you are claiming to have been right. Your reasoning was and is still flawed.

The actual 'best card' for DCS is the 5090. Everything else is weaker, and has less VRAM, but is also cheaper and uses less power.

Over where I live, you can get a dual-fan 7900 XTX for 914 euros. So compared to the 9070 XT MRSP and the performance metrics you posted, the 7900 XTX is 14% faster for a 30% higher price. And from what others posted, my local market is probably one of the better ones and in many places, that gap is even bigger.

And 16 GB of VRAM is still a very solid amount for DCS. If anything, what is DOA for DCS is the 5070, because I would definitely suggest that people get the 9070 XT or non-XT instead, because the extra 4 GB is a big deal.

 

Well my 4090 already does more frames per second than my monitor can display at its maximum refresh rate (240Hz) So why would I buy a card for 50% price penalty, that functionally gives same gaming experience?

The 7900XTX has same ammount of memory and for anything else than VR it also provides same gameplay experience in DCS.

And if you want to focus on price per FPS ratio, the pricing data on hardware unboxed 9070XT review is from mid 2024. My sister booght a 7900XT this month for 530€ which for DCS blows the 9070XT out of the watter considering it has 20GB VRAM while the 9070XT would already be maxed out (even considering the AIB's will honour MSRP, which they won´t).

So, in either case only a minotrity would get a 5090, equaly on the budget side, a 7900XT is better value, and in absence of a used 4090, get a 7900XTX thats 1000$ less.

[Pilotasso]

18 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

Think You're going to be hard pressed to find discounted 7900XTX, not sure where you're seeing discounts. In the US they are all well over $1000. Assuming 9070XT keeps MSRP, you're getting 88% of the performance for half the price.

null

my argument with Aapje is from couple of months back. the 7900XTX is 900€ and 7900XT is in the vicitnity of 500€, if the high end AIB's are avoided (my sister got a XFX Merc10 7900XT variant for 530€ just later last month).

Anyone should have gotten one of those instead of the 9070 for DCS. The latter is poor value and will get maxed out sooner due to 16MB VRAM.

[LucShep]

43 minutes ago, Pilotasso said:

000My sister booght a 7900XT this month for 530€ which for DCS blows the 9070XT out of the watter considering it has 20GB VRAM while the 9070XT would already be maxed out (even considering the AIB's will honour MSRP, which they won´t).

So, in either case only a minotrity would get a 5090, equaly on the budget side, a 7900XT is better value, and in absence of a used 4090, get a 7900XTX thats 1000$ less.

Alright, now that is a really good price for a 7900XT 20GB, for sure!  
And it does makes a case for a better purchase than anything similar performance wise (than even the new 9070/XT).

The problem is....... where are brand new 7900XT 20GB being sold for 530€?   

In the current market, and for someone wanting to upgrade to a new high end GPU, yes I'd agree that the AMD 7900XTX is definitely a better value purchase than the Nvidia RTX 5090 (near unobtanium) or the RTX 4090 stock left overs (at over double the price of it).

But the counter to the 7900XTX argument is that, for less than 2/3 of its price you now have the new RX 9070XT 16GB.
With basically similar raster performance, better driver support from here on (knowing AMD, will imediately focus on RX9000 series almost exclusively), not to mention better Ray Tracing performance and much superior FSR4 upscaling tech (coming to more games) - very important if your gaming life extends beyond DCS. Even if with less VRAM, I'd probably accept it and consider 16GB is plenty, even for DCS.

And BTW.... (conclusions at 16:05 if you just want the gist of it)

Edited March 6 by LucShep

[Pilotasso]

I was screaming on top of my lungs to get those cards back then before they dried out. If you think I am BS'ing you then here is the proof:

 

yeah they saw people gobling up all 7900 series and jacked up prices 2X since.

Edited March 6 by Pilotasso

[LucShep]

17 minutes ago, Pilotasso said:

I was screaming on top of my lungs to get those cards back then before they dryed out. If you thin I am BS'ing you then this is proof:

 

Bugger  you really took the last one didn't you?  LOL

The 7900XT 20GB are all over the regular 790€ price now.   (so better get the new RX9070XT 16GB instead)

Edited March 6 by LucShep

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Qcumber said:

I got the 5070ti for £799 (MSI Ventus OC; MSRP here is £729). It arrives next week (I hope). I got it from Amazon so have 30 day return.

I'll see what the AMD stock is like next week. The Rx 9070xt base price in the UK is £569. They all went from online stores immediately and all the store servers crashed. I was ready and refreshed the second it turned 1400 and managed to get one in my basket once but then could not check out. I think it's easier to get tickets for Glastonbury festival! 

I have owned AMD cards before and have liked them. However, DLSS is growing on me and it does not sound like FSR4 will come to DCS anytime soon. 

Update:

Not good for future buying. Those who bought today were very lucky. 

https://overclock3d.net/news/gpu-displays/retailers-confirm-limited-msrp-pricing-for-amd-rx-9070-series-gpus/
 

Yeah, I'd say keep the RTX5070Ti.  

The fountain has dried now anyway, and it looks like prices on the 9070XT and 9070 are going to shoot up sky high very soon.
At least it went decenty for a few hours this time (unlike Nvidia's) but it seems it's another GPU launch and release going bad, again. 

 Welp, congrats to those who managed to get one anywhere near MSRP... 
 

Edited March 6 by LucShep

[Qcumber]

I think future prices are going to be closer to the rtx 5070ti. According to MooresLawisDead this is due to a mess up with AMD when pre-stocking cards back in January when the original launch prices were higher. This has resulted in retailer rebates. But this only applies to limited stock (13min 45sec). 

Edit: I think I will stick with the rtx 5070ti. I'm annoyed as I wanted to support AMD. 

Edited March 6 by Qcumber

[AngleOff66]

Buildzoid looks at the Sapphire implementation of the 12VHPWR connector on the RX 9070 XT Nitro+.  Close, but no cigar?

Edit:  Hopefully there is enough head room so that it doesn't have the same issues as the green ones.

Edited March 6 by AngleOff66

[Aapje]

3 hours ago, Pilotasso said:

my argument with Aapje is from couple of months back. the 7900XTX is 900€ and 7900XT is in the vicitnity of 500€, if the high end AIB's are avoided (my sister got a XFX Merc10 7900XT variant for 530€ just later last month).

Anyone should have gotten one of those instead of the 9070 for DCS. The latter is poor value and will get maxed out sooner due to 16MB VRAM.

Sorry, that part I bolded is just nonsense. That card you got never hit that price in The Netherlands (nor did any of the other 7900 XTs). The closest it got was a price of 679 euros for a millisecond.

And that shop where you bought only ships to some EU countries. And how would non-Portuguese people even know about the pricing in that shop?

Your invoice also looks super fishy with a 0% VAT. Did you order it as a person or as a company? A zero percentage VAT is certainly not viable for everyone.

How can you be reasoned with when you make all these false claims?

Edited March 6 by Aapje

[Aapje]

7 hours ago, LucShep said:

I'm dramatizing?  "merely a narrative"! 

Have a look then.......
[images removed]
That's a search engine showing what is in stock and at the lowest price, in the whole territory peninsular and insular of good old Portugal nation.

Please don't tell me it's a country specific thing, because I'm seeing the exact same thing on Spanish, French and Italian stores. 

How is that a proper reply to my argument that we are having a temporary shortage issue, and that you are catastrophizing this situation by making claims that this fairly recent change is what the future will look like? If you get the flu, do you also assume that you will feel sick forever, or do you expect to get better again?

Showing that we indeed are having a shortage right now, of the new Nvidia cards, in multiple markets, doesn't actually counter anything I said, or support your claims.

Quote

And I'm sorry if I'm not able to positively fantasize on future possibilities, speculation and roadplans, which may or may not be viable or actually better solutions in the end, when the present indicates unstable predictions.

How so? Is there something that greatly increases demand compared to a few months ago, like we had during the crypto boom? No.

Is there something that limits production of cards for all suppliers in the future? No, plenty of capacity for TSMC N4. And AMD is still using GDDR6, so they can always just make more GDDR6 cards if there is a GDDR7 issue.

So everything points to an execution issue at Nvidia. They messed up. This inherently is a temporary issue. Either they shape up in the next few months, or AMD will be laughing to the bank by ramping up their production a lot. And even then Nvidia will fix it eventually.

That it's really just an Nvidia issue is visible in the 7800 XT pricing. You can still buy them for almost their lowest price over here. So there is not a general shortage, just a shortage of the new Nvidia cards, and the old Nvidia cards that they stopped producing.

But we have competition, so if they keep failing, then AMD will take that market share. Although I don't expect Nvidia to keep failing for a very long time. So the logical outcome is that the prices and supply of GPUs will normalize and stabilize over time. Worst case is that Nvidia keeps having issues, and that the people who insist on getting an Nvidia card pay out of their nose, but that still doesn't mean that there won't be GPUs available, just perhaps not what people want.

PS. If 9070 XT prices shoot up a bit after the initial shipment sells out, this still doesn't prove me wrong. I'm talking about longer term trends, not some fluctuations. Short term supply issues after launch are perfectly normal and not a sign of permanent issues.

Edited March 6 by Aapje

[Pilotasso]

55 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Sorry, that part I bolded is just nonsense. That card you got never hit that price in The Netherlands (nor did any of the other 7900 XTs). The closest it got was a price of 679 euros for a millisecond.

And that shop where you bought only ships to some EU countries. And how would non-Portuguese people even know about the pricing in that shop?

Your invoice also looks super fishy with a 0% VAT. Did you order it as a person or as a company? A zero percentage VAT is certainly not viable for everyone.

How can you be reasoned with when you make all these false claims?

It was my sister's, and she took her sweet time to take my advice. She had no bot to press the buy button instantly.  It wasnt me. So they had those prices for more than a milisecond. If you want to continue to be clueless despite the evidence I provided go ahead. Pay more for less performance. 

[Aapje]

There's probably a language issue here, because I never claimed that your price was only available for a second, but that the price of 679 euros in NL was only briefly available (at most a day).

I'm still waiting for you to explain how anyone could have taken that deal you posted, when that shop only sends their products to a few countries, and even then, probably with much higher shipping than what you paid.

And I'm still waiting for an explanation why your invoice states that the VAT is 0%, because that in itself makes around a 20% difference.

Edited March 6 by Aapje

[LucShep]

4 hours ago, Aapje said:

How is that a proper reply to my argument that we are having a temporary shortage issue, and that you are catastrophizing this situation by making claims that this fairly recent change is what the future will look like? If you get the flu, do you also assume that you will feel sick forever, or do you expect to get better again?

Showing that we indeed are having a shortage right now, of the new Nvidia cards, in multiple markets, doesn't actually counter anything I said, or support your claims.

How so? Is there something that greatly increases demand compared to a few months ago, like we had during the crypto boom? No.

Is there something that limits production of cards for all suppliers in the future? No, plenty of capacity for TSMC N4. And AMD is still using GDDR6, so they can always just make more GDDR6 cards if there is a GDDR7 issue.

So everything points to an execution issue at Nvidia. They messed up. This inherently is a temporary issue. Either they shape up in the next few months, or AMD will be laughing to the bank by ramping up their production a lot. And even then Nvidia will fix it eventually.

Let's see if I can make sense (not one of my qualities, I admit, and sorry for the wall of text)....  It was all in context, but you didn't notice.

You first replied to a quote on a previous post of mine, where I said "the imediate reality is, the days of ≥20GB GPUs for DCS users are pretty much gone and over", where you disagreed and mentioned the lack of potential adoption of 3GB VRAM modules (instead of the current 2GB we have) hindering the RTX 5080, likely having a 24GB version later - which (as I said), if happening, will be again a sh!tshow with availability and ludicrous street price.

And on next post you ilustrated your optimism towards higher VRAM on next GPUs "where the industry is going" (your words, not mine) with a Micron roadmap "vision".
I countered that argument in my reply by saying "sorry for not positively fantasizing on future possibilities, speculation and roadplans, which may or may not be viable or actually better solutions in the end", and also giving an example of that, with the GDDR7 case - something that memory manufacturers hyped (like 3GB modules are being now) but, in the end, is proving (atm) to be a sidegrade, not an upgrade, to GDDR6X for gaming on latest Nvidia GPUs RTX 5090, 5080 and 5070/Ti (because it has its own issues, such as higher working temps hindering higher clocks - which could make a difference otherwise, but simply doesn't atm).

Same thing may, or not, happen with 3GB VRAM modules, that's what I meant. You don't know, and I don't know.
Even if basing on a roadmap ilustration from a memory manufacturer, it doesn't mean that anything substancial will happen VRAM ammount wise for gaming market GPUs.
It's Nvidia, AMD and Intel who decides how (and how many of) those VRAM modules are used for X and Y model and market segment. Not the memory makers.
More than likely what we'll end up seeing is 18GB VRAM (6x 3GB modules) instead of 16GB VRAM (8x 2GB modules). Think about how 1) gaming development in general is NOT developing (it is stagnated) and 2) the budget constraints and how it would work on very large VRAM GPUs (24GB and over), already very expensive GPUs as they are on the current world economy, itself not showing great prospects in general for the coming years (actually the contrary).

If Nvidia and AMD wanted to sell you 20GB and 24GB RTX5070s and RX9070s they would've already - the tech to do it already exhists for plenty years with 2GB modules.
That'll only happen in years from now with following generations, by natural progression, just like before, as has always been. Not because of bigger capacity memory modules, although they will be a factor later on (modules with bigger capacity have also been natural progression).
The general consensus is that there is no need for more than 16GB VRAM for PC gaming, not for the time expectation of this generation (as in, for at least 2 years).
More than that would be for GPUs aimed at content creators, but we now know those would be at (even more) prohibitive prices.
So, and no less important, bigger VRAM GPUs, in the current and near future PC gaming market and economy, would mean even more expensive GPUs than today...

.....and hence my mention of "the rich buyers" (as you said "people who are willing to spend big on gaming" and who you consider to be a factor) who in reality are not enough to sustain the PC gaming market, at all (nor who ED should be focusing on for DCS). As I said, and in my opinion, "those (at max) are not even 5% from the total userbase/market, like what hypercar millionaires are to the automobile market".
What has been really happening is FOMO pushing people to "buy higher" than they should - a worldwide endemic in PC hardware, which any PC hardware vendor/store will tell you clearly exhists and influences the market, and is exploited by the manufacturers. And PC tech influencers (glorified salesmen) also have blame on this. Which then also influences PC gaming developers (less optimization is a big growing problem), and so on, all in a vicious circle. It's not balanced like you say, it's actually unbalanced.

Have you noticed how much the GPUs have exponentially increased price in just five years? This isn't "almost certainly temporary" (your words, not mine).
Prices are ridiculous because it's simple market pricing exploitation from the GPU makers, prices are not really based on tech advancements. There is the problem of scalping and hording at releases, but that's only one moment. Prices barely decrease during the whole lifespan of a GPU generation (rare exceptions to some Intel and AMD GPUs that simply don't sell), the opposite actually happening in this last generation.
GPU manufacturers ARE betting on PC gamers to pay ridiculous ammounts of money - because it worked during and after the pandemic - it's working for them, it's here to stay.

Yes, it'll reach a point (more than today) when people simply can't keep up, and many (I'd say most?) pass on it and will be left with obsolete GPUs, or resignate into buying lower segment than they would have years before.  It's then, of course, that GPUs will have to get lower price tags to sell - "it will get worse before it gets better", like I said.

 

Edited March 7 by LucShep
spelling(?)

[Qcumber]

The prices on Overclockers website have gone from £569.99 to £629.99. Not as bad as I expected. 

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/pc-components/graphics-cards/amd-graphics-cards/amd-radeon-rx-9070-xt-graphics-cards?sort=price_asc