Sparrow-Capable F-16s

[smoking_ace420]

For the Syria map, Israel is lacking an important resource it had during the 1982 Battle of Bekka Valley. The only BVR capable fighter available to Israel on DCS is the F-15 on Cold War historical mode.

Edited May 8 by smoking_ace420

[Exorcet]

I don't really use historical mode and I'm not sure if you mean player or AI, but I think there is an AI F-16 somewhere with Sparrows unless I'm misremembering. If there is I'd imagine you could place it under Combined Task Force Blue as a substitute for an Israeli F-16 unless The Task Force nations are not allowed in historical mode?

[Czar66]

10 hours ago, smoking_ace420 said:

For the Syria map, Israel is lacking an important resource it had during the 1982 Battle of Bekka Valley. The only BVR capable fighter available to Israel on DCS is the F-15 on Cold War historical mode.

What's wrong with the F-4E?

[Gunfreak]

Egypt also had Sparrow F16(Isreal apparently demanded that Egypt couldn't get Amraams for their F16s)

[Bigity]

Lantirn pods would be good as well as Sparrows.

[Dragon1-1]

Sparrows were available on some export versions and I think ANG Block 30s or 32s. A very specific version of the Viper, one that we don't have.

[bies]

Israeli F-16A didn't have Sparrows during 1982 Bekaa Valley Mole Cricket operation.

It would be against the whole F-16 design philosophy, adding drag, weight, price, complexity.

The only F-16 using Sparrows were National Air Guard F-16A ADF and Taiwanese export variant with dumbed down APG-66(v) 3, used to intercept bombers. F-16A APG-66 lock range and lock stability was considered inadequate for air combat.

F-16A was designed for close maneuver air combat with Sidewinders and guns. It received BVR capacity only after the Cold War / Desert Storm in early 1990s.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Sparrows were available on some export versions and I think ANG Block 30s or 32s. A very specific version of the Viper, one that we don't have.

The US ANG Vipers in question were the F-16A Blk. 15 designated "ADF"

 

 

17 minutes ago, bies said:

F-16A was designed for close maneuver air combat with Sidewinders and guns. It received BVR capacity only after the Cold War / Desert Storm in early 1990s.

That part of the program changed relatively quickly. Even before the first As and Bs entered IOC, a lot of those working on the program noted that the aircraft would benefit greatly from the BVR capability. Soon after the F-16 first started arriving at units, it became clear it needed that capability. So much so that you can basically assume that any Block 10 and onward are AMRAAM capable owing to their strengthened wing construction.

The F-16 was one of three airframes the AMRAAM was tested on, even. It just didn't achieve IOC on the Viper until January of '92. In fact, the AIM-120 didn't even achieve its first IOC until September of '91 on the F-15. This has more to do with the AMRAAM, though, as it encountered delays throughout the 80s.

I imagine the reason only a few Vipers got Sparrows was because this fighter was supposed to be the combat backbone of TAC; It probably seemed like large waste of time, money, and resources to mount the downright ancient Sparrows on their new tactical fighter when the AMRAAM was lighter, superior, and was not too far away.

[smoking_ace420]

On 5/8/2025 at 1:50 PM, bies said:

Israeli F-16A didn't have Sparrows during 1982 Bekaa Valley Mole Cricket operation.

It would be against the whole F-16 design philosophy, adding drag, weight, price, complexity.

The only F-16 using Sparrows were National Air Guard F-16A ADF and Taiwanese export variant with dumbed down APG-66(v) 3, used to intercept bombers. F-16A APG-66 lock range and lock stability was considered inadequate for air combat.

F-16A was designed for close maneuver air combat with Sidewinders and guns. It received BVR capacity only after the Cold War / Desert Storm in early 1990s.

Then how did IAF Falcons defeat BVR capable Floggers?

 

On 5/8/2025 at 9:31 AM, Czar66 said:

What's wrong with the F-4E?

 

It's obsolete against 4th Gen fighters except in BVR. Plus, by the 80s, the F-15, Kfir and others took it's place in a2a role.

[F-2]

2 minutes ago, smoking_ace420 said:

Then how did IAF Falcons defeat BVR capable Floggers?

 

 

It's obsolete against 4th Gen fighters except in BVR. Plus, by the 80s, the F-15, Kfir and others took it's place in a2a role.

The Eagles did. BVR was kind of a crap shoot at the time with AIM-7F and R23 being pretty limited. AIM-9L and Python 3 getting most of the kills.

[Czar66]

1 hour ago, smoking_ace420 said:

It's obsolete against 4th Gen fighters except in BVR

I was replying to exactly for the BVR claim. Read your comment that I replied to.

[Gunfreak]

16 hours ago, smoking_ace420 said:

Then how did IAF Falcons defeat BVR capable Floggers?

 

 

 

Same way you would defeat a MiG23 or other BVR capable aircraft in DCS with an F16 armed with a Sidewinder. 

 

[F-2]

The reality is the F-16 wasn’t going to do much without support. In Lebanon and the Gulf they were on a very short leash while Eagles handled air superiority.

 

 

Still given the limitations of the Floggers sensors it wasn’t hard for a Viper to get close and hit it with a sidewinder. Here is a Pakistani F-16A killing a MIG-23MLD it just flew up too.

 

[bies]

On 5/20/2025 at 10:16 PM, smoking_ace420 said:

Then how did IAF Falcons defeat BVR capable Floggers?

Floggers BVR capabilities were extremely limited,

• Floggers had very small detection range (and tiny against notoriously hard to detect F-16),
• Flogger radars required GCI support and GCI-link radar stering from the ground to realistically pickup any target except for straight and high flying bomber, and GCI link has been easily jammed by Israelis,
• Situational awareness of Floggers, whith jammed communications and GCI-link, avionics not suited for autonomous operation, extremely limited cockpit visibility, was minimal,
• Sidewinders/Pythons didn't provide any launch warning for Floggers,
• Sidewinder had bigger F-pole, becuse it's fire-and-forget, then Beam-maneuver for R-23 as it's SAHR, required maintaining lock untill the hit, and the missile had poor kinematic performance and breaking the lock was easy for trained Israelis having high SA.

I understand some random people may not know that, but guys intrested in flying sims, playing DCS regularly in multitude of different engagements... Please.

Go Mirage F.1 with "BVR" 530 against F-16 with just Sidewinders. It will be quite one sided, despite theoretical BVR capability, not usefull against small tactical fighter.

Or go and read about ~1977 ACEVAL/AIMVAL reports. They performed hundreds of simulated air combat encourters in every possible configuration and tactics. F-5 were able to break very stable F-15 lock of their big, modern, powefull, fast computer and algorithms aided radars. Breaking the lock of crude Flogger would be trivial in comparison for a small, nimble, tactical fighter.

Edited May 22 by bies