Cant wait for the future release of the AH64

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

There exist other avenues probably, such as demonstrator sims of older technologies for the manufacturers, so they can show off stuff that is no longer classified.

 

This is a really wild guess on my part though.

[arneh]

Furthermore, ED will be doing what fits their business plan, and AFAIK that means prioritizing military contracts - which by extension means that DCS modules will depend on what simulations are requested for by militaries - at least this appears to be the typical situation for now.

 

I have a hard time imagining what military would want a AH-64A simulator, when the A is mostly outdated and replaced by the AH-64D. So that doesn't look good for the AH-64A ever being made if military contracts is what decides what is made.

[joey45]

^^^^

 

There exist other avenues probably, such as demonstrator sims of older technologies for the manufacturers, so they can show off stuff that is no longer classified.

 

This is a really wild guess on my part though.

 

great idea.

 

arneh -

the A10-C is a midified version of their D.T.S. The Apache is probaly a side project.

[Ivonq]

I have a hard time imagining what military would want a AH-64A simulator, when the A is mostly outdated and replaced by the AH-64D. So that doesn't look good for the AH-64A ever being made if military contracts is what decides what is made.

 

The same applies for the BS, or did the Russian Army pay for its development (if so, I missed that part)? I can't believe the army wouldn't be interested in an Aoache AH-64D model simulator.

[bumfire]

I don't think ED is much into retro fighters ...

 

 

Retro :| Uk used them up until the 90s :)

 

I can understand ED not doing it from a financial point of view as people want f15s f18s 16s etc and the russian equivelant, but if they continue to release planes for dcs for say over 10 years, then who knows what they might release ? but saying that I doubt a lightning will be forthcoming, which is sad, if ED dont do it I dont want ANY other company to do one as they will ruin it.

[Ivonq]

Your statement is quite false. You don't have to like it, nor do you have to admit it ... it's just the way it is.

 

Pointynoses > Rotorheads :D

 

Well, ....that is abit a shallow and one-sided conclusive reply, not?

 

Look up some statistics on how many people know about what an Apache is, compared to any jet (except the space shuttle or the 737), it is every day in the freaking news!

 

It is like the Coca Cola of anything that flies and has attack capabilities :D

 

Business wise - the Apache would be the most valuable choice for EDs financial interests....

 

Anyhow...time will tell...

[Pilotasso]

All signs aiming that ED cannot afford split resources for the domestic market demanding different aircraft from the military contract- wich is ED's main focus now. (secondary focus being a mainstream marketed version of their military SIM's).

 

If you think of it, the probable military market ED might explore probably consists on widely widespread exported (or due to be exported) aircraft proposed for the many countries that do not have financial capability to buy complex dome SIM's. Wich kinda rules out the biggest and baddest of the fighters procured in the most developed countries.

 

Think that we might get F-16 block 50 equivalent (includes MLU), Mirage 2000, Mig-29SMT or even a SU-27ish (dont think well ever get the MKI or the SM versions though), JF-17, Tiger, T-50, LCA. Etc. It could happen.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Pilotasso

[joey45]

Retro :| Uk used them up until the 90s :)

 

Like the Buccaneer and the Jaguar

[GGTharos]

Well, ....that is abit a shallow and one-sided conclusive reply, not?

 

Sure ...

 

Look up some statistics on how many people know about what an Apache is, compared to any jet (except the space shuttle or the 737), it is every day in the freaking news!

 

It is like the Coca Cola of anything that flies and has attack capabilities :D

 

 

Okay. Look at how many people are playing IL2 online, and then look at how many people play ALL the heli sims together.

I win. ;)

 

Modern jet sims are just a bit less popular, but at the very least there is a huge Falcon Community, and MSFS community, most of whom fly simulated fixed wings.

 

 

Business wise - the Apache would be the most valuable choice for EDs financial interests....

 

Anyhow...time will tell...

 

I find it amusing that you told me to look up statistics, and then you try to tell ED their business which they undoubtedly know far better than you do.

[topol-m]

I find it amusing that you told me to look up statistics, and then you try to tell ED their business which they undoubtedly know far better than you do.

 

Ouchh :)

[Ivonq]

Sure ...

 

 

 

 

Okay. Look at how many people are playing IL2 online, and then look at how many people play ALL the heli sims together.

I win. ;)

 

Modern jet sims are just a bit less popular, but at the very least there is a huge Falcon Community, and MSFS community, most of whom fly simulated fixed wings.

 

 

 

 

I find it amusing that you told me to look up statistics, and then you try to tell ED their business which they undoubtedly know far better than you do.

 

I think your reasoning is abit flawed...The Apache is the most recognized brand name out there when it comes to attack aircrafts, and then I'm not talking about the limited current customer base ED currently has. I'm talking about the mainstream audience.

 

Ask the people if they know what an Apache is or IL-2....!!!

 

They know this helicopter as 'The most advanced helicopter there is', which fights for freedom and the war against terrorism daily.

 

None of the mainstream audience know what a BS is, the only modern helicopter simulator, which runs on a somewhat recent game engine. Everyone would like to fly an Apache, even the hard to acquire mainstream audience, because it is simply Cool.

 

Create an Apache simulator (especially the D version) on a current gen engine and one has one hell of a golden goose. One of the reasons that BS is not a big success in the mainstream market is simply because no one knows about this helicopter. And its weapon systems are quite dated. It is simply not Cool enough. That applies to flight sim and mainstream market customers.

 

You just need to have a look at the old days and see how popular the Janes Longbow 2 software was, and that was without the Apache being a public brand.

 

In this business we are talking about numbers, in the end of the day it is about making a profit and providing security towards company existence. Don't tell me ED is not interested in expanding its gaming division and making a big amount of $$$. The Apache will do that, the other modules won't be able to push ED as much...I'm willing to take a bet on that.

 

If ED is soo good at business and their business model, I would presume they would be alot bigger than they are now. One does not stick its head in the sand. One opens the eyes and looks critically at its own paradigms and is open for different ones (views). Especially when one hasn't reached the top, yet, but has the qualities to do so...that is just being smart.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Ivonq

[GGTharos]

I think your reasoning is abit flawed...The Apache is the most recognized brand name out there when it comes to attack aircrafts, and then I'm not talking about the limited current customer base ED currently has. I'm talking about the mainstream audience.

 

Yeah, so am I :D

 

They know this helicopter as 'The most advanced helicopter there is', which fights for freedom and the war against terrorism daily.

So does the Ka-50 :D

 

None of the mainstream audience know what a BS is, the only modern helicopter simulator, which runs on a somewhat recent game engine. Everyone would like to fly an Apache, even the hard to acquire mainstream audience, because it is simply Cool.

I'm sorry? Come again? The Russians are not 'mainstream audience'? When and where did you get that idea? Is it because you don't live there?

BTW, I wouldn't really want to fly the apache. I'll give it a shot if it shows up, but for me - not a pound for air to ground - F-15C or F-22 all the way, but I'll settle for others. So what's this 'everyone' you're talking about? ;)

 

Create an Apache simulator (especially the D version) on a current gen engine and one has one hell of a golden goose. One of the reasons that BS is not a big success in the mainstream market is simply because no one knows about this helicopter. And its weapon systems are quite dated. It is simply not Cool enough. That applies to flight sim and mainstream market customers.

Actually BS sold pretty well. In fact it was re-ordered by distributors.

 

You just need to have a look at the old days and see how popular the Janes Longbow 2 software was, and that was without the Apache being a public brand.

Living in the past is a way to lose today and especially tomorrow :D

 

In this business we are talking about numbers, in the end of the day it is about making a profit and providing security towards company existence. Don't tell me ED is not interested in expanding its gaming division and making a big amount of $$$. The Apache will do that, the other modules won't be able to push ED as much...I'm willing to take a bet on that.

ED has done their math, and they know what they're doing. Do you know what would make more money than an AH-64?

An F-16! :D

Or F-18 ... or even a Mirage, though that's a little less likely.

 

If ED is soo good at business and their business model, I would presume they would be alot bigger than they are now. One does not stick its head in the sand. One opens the eyes and looks critically at its own paradigms and is open for different ones (views). Especially when one hasn't reached the top, yet, but has the qualities to do so...that is just being smart.

I'm sorry, who are you to tell that ED is doing their business wrong, again?

 

Really, take your head out of the sand. Rotorhead community = tiny ... in an already niche product. People at ED are trying to make a good living, and they do not depend on your lack of insight into their market for this. Not to be mean, but you're out of line and out of your league.

 

If an AH-64 is to happen, so far it will be an -A, and it will happen on ED's schedule, not on yours or your presumptions about what the market looks like.

 

 

Finally, to make this perfectly clear, because it obviously isn't:

ED has a plan on how they go about making these modules. It works fairly well for them.

Edited August 17, 2009 by GGTharos

[Panzertard]

Ivonq, just a friendly hint here, bud :)

 

You might have some good intentions with your posting :)

However - someone else is making the decisions in ED, and until you or anyone else becomes decisions-makers all you can do is post on the forums.

On the other hand, Ed may have put together plans for 2012. We dont know.

IMHO: I wouldnt have too much expectations regarding personal opinions influencing ED's business strategy. :)

 

Also, these kind of arguments tend to become quite personal - because it gets more and more important to "prove that <insert my nick here> is right". It'll may well end up with lots of claims, counter claims, angry statements etc. :)

 

Suggestion: state you business once, maybe twice, to backup your statements (with external references if the debate is really important for you) - and then let it sink in while everybody cools off.

 

More posting may just end up in commontion and sending the wrong signals ;)

[Rhino4]

Ivonq: Your reasoning is flawed.

I'm talking about the mainstream audience.

Which mainstream audience? The one that flies helicopter sims, which is quite small, or the one that flies fixed wings, which is quite large?

I'm not talking about the limited current customer base ED currently has.

Neither is anyone else. We're not just talking about lockon FC or DCS:BS. We're also talking about IL2, MSFS, and Falcon 4.0 - Any ONE of these groups dwarfs the entire helicopter fanbase.

Everyone would like to fly an Apache, even the hard to acquire mainstream audience, because it is simply Cool.

I'd rather fly an F-16, because it is simply cool. Am I included in your "everyone"?

Create an Apache simulator (especially the D version) on a current gen engine and one has one hell of a golden goose.

While there are plans to make an AH-64A, there will never be a D model.

You just need to have a look at the old days and see how popular the Janes Longbow 2 software was

The really old days...

that was without the Apache being a public brand.

...But only in America. ED needs to think worldwide.

In this business we are talking about numbers, in the end of the day it is about making a profit and providing security towards company existence.

Agreed...

The Apache will do that, the other modules won't be able to push ED as much

...But I believe you have a bit of a bias when it comes to this helicopter.

If ED is soo good at business and their business model, I would presume they would be alot bigger than they are now.

ED is quite a big company, considering they make such niche games.

One does not stick its head in the sand. One opens the eyes and looks critically at its own paradigms and is open for different ones (views).

*COUGHyoutooCOUGH*

One of the reasons that BS is not a big success in the mainstream market is simply because no one knows about this helicopter. And its weapon systems are quite dated.

Then why are you pushing for an apache instead of a tiger? It's newer, with a reasonable export to european countries. Its weapon systems are state of the art (relatively speaking). Since more people in European countries play sims that people in America, why don't you ask for a European helicopter? As I said, it appears that you are biased. That's not a bad thing, but you are letting it blind you from what other people are trying to tell you...

 

P.S. We won't get a tiger, at least for a long time. You'll get your apache, at least the A model. And once you do, I suspect you'll get rather tired of getting shot down by the fast movers that will also eventually make their way into the game. Still, I am looking forward to finally having a two-person cockpit to play around with. I am looking forward to the apache. I'm just not blinded by my need for it...

 

EDIT: Beaten to the punch!

[EtherealN]

Ivonq,

"No one knows about this helicopter"? You kidding?

 

Novalogic made some really kickass (tho arcadey) games featuring this chopper in the mid nineties.

There's also Enemy Engaged 2 which featured it as well.

 

Speaking personally, as a western person, when I saw that ED were working on the Ka-50 I came in my pants. It was a dream come true. The Apache on the other hand... I've played so many Apache sims in my days (including Longbow 2 and EE1) that while it would be nice with a DCS-standard Apache... Meh. It's an awesome chopper, but once you've done your thousand hour stint of simming it other stuff becomes more tempting. If we're going to talk about helicopters, tell any sim jockey who grew up with the Rambo movies that they might get to fly a Hind in the future and they'll wet their pants with joy. (Unless they've caught GG's deplorable fast-mover illness... :P )

 

I had a similar reaction to Flaming Cliffs. Better Su-25! OMG! I was building lots of Airfix Su-25 kits when I was a kid and I was ready to offer marriage to any person at ED who would dare claim responsibility for making the decision to do that one. But who the hell in the mainstream knows about the Su-25?

 

That's the fundamental problem in your logic. You have an idea of what everyone knows about, but beyond the already pointed out americentric view of it (do you have any idea how big the sim market in russia and the CIS countries are? I wouldn't be surprised if they sell more sims than the rest of the world combined...). Who cares if western people know the Apache better than the Ka-50? The former eastern bloc people would probably rather have the Havok. Who cares about that repeated-to-death american gadget, they might say?

 

And also, your logic seems to be that ED needs to become "mainstream". Well, to go "mainstream", sorry, but then they have to do stuff like HAWX. That is what you do to go mainstream in the "sim" market. You take your good name (in that case, Clancy), wrap some cool effects and aircraft models in a nice actionpacked 3D sidescroller and WIN! You are mainstream and make money.

 

Don't EVER tell ED to go mainstream. EVER.

Though of course, that's the western "mainstream". Russia and CIS mainstream... Well... Judge it by where the majority of the few companies making realistic sims operate now. Even Microsoft didn't bother to keep the MSFS studio alive...

 

All of that said: I agree that the AH-64 would probably sell better in the west than the Ka-50, which from rumor does say a bit considering the size of the market. But ED has to think about total sales, not sales amongst people who grew up in the west. This is a good sting to our collective western pride, yes, but in this market we are growing ever less important, since our mainstream wants our bloody 3D sidescrollers and instant-gratification games whereas theirs actually support hardcore simulators to an acceptable degree.

 

*note: I have not actually read reports and research on all this, but is judging it all through where the hardcore sims are made, what choices the developers make and what choices are made. Remember when IL-2 was released? Everyone said "IL what?" and looked a bit closer, and then realized that "wow... I just realized... I've never EVER played a WW2 sim that's on the eastern front before... I so have to try that!" So well, end point: the decisions that ED make are part of the data you should take into consideration when judging what is popular, because they have people that work full-time analyzing this stuff.

Edited August 17, 2009 by EtherealN

[Ivonq]

Ivonq, just a friendly hint here, bud :)

 

You might have some good intentions with your posting :)

However - someone else is making the decisions in ED, and until you or anyone else becomes decisions-makers all you can do is post on the forums.

On the other hand, Ed may have put together plans for 2012. We dont know.

IMHO: I wouldnt have too much expectations regarding personal opinions influencing ED's business strategy. :)

 

Also, these kind of arguments tend to become quite personal - because it gets more and more important to "prove that <insert my nick here> is right". It'll may well end up with lots of claims, counter claims, angry statements etc. :)

 

Suggestion: state you business once, maybe twice, to backup your statements (with external references if the debate is really important for you) - and then let it sink in while everybody cools off.

 

More posting may just end up in commontion and sending the wrong signals ;)

 

I think I'll just follow your advice, I made my point.

 

PS: for the board of ED - meaning the CEO and its management team, the comments by me are of a positive critical nature for the better of ED.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Ivonq

[Panzertard]

:thumbup:

[GGTharos]

If we're going to talk about helicopters, tell any sim jockey who grew up with the Rambo movies that they might get to fly a Hind in the future and they'll wet their pants with joy. (Unless they've caught GG's deplorable fast-mover illness... :P )

 

 

Too bad that wasn't a hind ... of you poor eggbeater fanboys ... :D

[EtherealN]

Some day... SOME DAY... I'm going to knock your damn F-15 out of the sky with a... hm... oh **** it, I'll just ram you.

[GGTharos]

WEll, I guess I do have to be landed from time to time so you might have an opportunity :D

[EtherealN]

I'll just print-screen you to death. :(

 

Errm... But we're drifting into hilarity mode now... Though to be honest I'm not sure that that wouldn't be all that bad for this thread. It needs hilarity.

[GGTharos]

Printscreened.

 

:tomato:

[joey45]

considering im getting fed up with American products in Flight sims- minus the A-10C..

 

I would rather like to see a European aircrafts in DCS cos there's not many out there.. But that will never happen at it'll be US vs Rus.

[GGTharos]

Depends - maybe someone will request a mirage sim for example ... maybe even Tornado.

 

I sort of doubt we'll see something like a Tiffy or Gripen though.

[joey45]

Tornado/Harrier is being fazzed out so thats out the window.

Mirage is a posibility.

Gripen is too modern and I doubt ED would get the info.

 

F4 would be cool if they done the UK modication, but that would mean HMS Ark Royal for FAA Ops.