check procedures TMS aft is ignored while TGP in INR AREA or INR POINT [65 seconds track attached]

[Rongor]

Regularly, the TGP will enter temporarily INR track mode while slewing, then the recent track mode is recommanded once slewing stops.

Occasionally, the TGP enters a continuous INR AREA or INR POINT track. This will reliably happen when the TGP is masked.
I noticed that during this state, actuating an exit out of AREA or POINT and then CZ is impossible to achieve by the usual 2x TMS aft.

Pressing the CZ OSB will reliably return the TGP to the steerpoint, which often is a quick way to exit unintended masking while surveying the area. Only the TMS aft won't do in this case.

While in a continuous state of INR AREA or INR POINT, TMS LEFT, FWD and RIGHT will still work normally, so it is still possible to switch TV/WHOT/BHOT and cycle between INR POINT and INR AREA. Only TMS aft is ignored.


In the track we see me heading towards steerpoint 1 which is ahead of us. I then switch to steerpoint 2 which is behind us. The TGP following to the new steerpoint is ending up masked and INR AREA or INR POINT are displayed continuously. After applying a bit of slew, I then press all the TMS directions, all do work, only TMS aft is ignored. CZ by OSB does clear the CZ.

When in regular POINT, AREA or INR, TMS aft behaves normally and applies CZ/ returns to INR and then applies CZ with 2nd press.

 

65 seconds track attached.

no TMS aft to INR.trk

[SpecterDC13]

Alright, I did some testing by taking control of your trk. 
- TMS AFT is not functioning correctly when masked.

In the trk I uploaded you will see I mask the TGP, and I am actively pressing TMS AFT and it does not CZ or going into regular INR. HOWEVER, as the trk plays you will see that I do manage to CZ and even go into INR while masked. I am only able to do this because I am slewing the TGP ever so slightly to bring it out of INR AREA/POINT and pressing TMS AFT at the same time.

Final conclusion: This is accurate and works as intended and here is why. You cannot CZ when the TGP is in: AREA, POINT, or INR Tracks (INR AREA/INR POINT). When in AREA or POINT notice you have to TMS AFT in order to bring it into INR first (not INR AREA or INR POINT just plain INR) in order to TMS AFT again to CZ. The reason you cannot TMS AFT 2x while in INR AREA/POINT is because that is the TGP correlating the image. You can test this out for yourself by having the TGP in front of you at the first stpt and slewing the TGP in order to have INR AREA/POINT appear and pressing TMS AFT twice to try to CZ, it will not work. So, if you have the TGP masked or it is about to be masked before you enter INR yourself, it will go into INR AREA/POINT, and that means it is attempting to correlate the image to what was stored in the memory but cannot do so. INR AREA/POINT goes away the minute you unmask.

Now, if you have one stpt in view and switch to put the other stpt behind you; you will notice that it automatically goes into INR mode. That is because it is going straight to the coords in the memory and doesn't need to correlate the image because no slews were made. But the minute you slew it, it will enter INR AREA, and you will not be able to CZ or enter INR. 

The only reason I am able to enter INR or CZ while being masked is because I am triggering it between the time it takes the image correlator in the TGP to correlate the image and the time I stop slewing. It happens very fast, so you have to TMS AFT 2x very quickly.

no TMS aft to INR - Rogue.trk

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

 

Do not expect normal tracking or cursor modes if the targeting pod is in a temporary mask.

thank you 

[Rongor]

8 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

Final conclusion: This is accurate and works as intended and here is why. You cannot CZ when the TGP is in: AREA, POINT, or INR Tracks (INR AREA/INR POINT). When in AREA or POINT notice you have to TMS AFT in order to bring it into INR first (not INR AREA or INR POINT just plain INR) in order to TMS AFT again to CZ. The reason you cannot TMS AFT 2x while in INR AREA/POINT is because that is the TGP correlating the image. You can test this out for yourself by having the TGP in front of you at the first stpt and slewing the TGP in order to have INR AREA/POINT appear and pressing TMS AFT twice to try to CZ, it will not work. So, if you have the TGP masked or it is about to be masked before you enter INR yourself, it will go into INR AREA/POINT, and that means it is attempting to correlate the image to what was stored in the memory but cannot do so. INR AREA/POINT goes away the minute you unmask.

I might be willing to believe that this is accurate only I can't see any argument presented why this should be the case.
What you describe is exactly what I described before. I am glad you experienced the same as I did.
 

Only how is this any hint that this is accurate?

 

Quote

The reason you cannot TMS AFT 2x while in INR AREA/POINT is because that is the TGP correlating the image

I know that the TGP is attempting to correlate an image, only I don't see how this is a reason to prevent TMS AFT from functioning.
On the contrary, TMS AFT would be the logical method to stop the failing correlation by putting it into basic INR.

Also the CZ next to OSB9 is evidence there is a Cursor Zero available. You can achieve it by pressing that OSB, so what is the benefit of locking out TMS aft to force the pilot to take his hand off a control to press it?
This effectively means an unnecessary degradation of HOTAS capability (admittedly a temporary and arguably unimportant one) and I can't see why avionic designers would intentional prevent TMS aft to function in this very moment.

 

 

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Do not expect normal tracking or cursor modes if the targeting pod is in a temporary mask.

I don't. What I expect is the TMS functions to work normal. Which in this case TMS aft doesn't for unknown reasons.
It may be accurate yet I don't see how we know it is.

Edited July 1 by Rongor

[BIGNEWY]

If you have any public information that it should be different please DM me. 

thank you 

[SpecterDC13]

47 minutes ago, Rongor said:

I might be willing to believe that this is accurate only I can't see any argument presented why this should be the case.
What you describe is exactly what I described before. I am glad you experienced the same as I did.
 

Only how is this any hint that this is accurate?

 

Because I worked on the F16 and use to mess around with the TGP. And that is how it works. I can promise you it works as advertised.

47 minutes ago, Rongor said:

I know that the TGP is attempting to correlate an image, only I don't see how this is a reason to prevent TMS AFT from functioning.
On the contrary, TMS AFT would be the logical method to stop the failing correlation by putting it into basic INR.

Because the TGP needs an image to go into regular INR in order to stabilize on. Inertial rate requires an image or it doesnt know what it needs to stabilize on. When you switch STPTs it will stabilize on a set of coords and doesnt need an image on that case. But once you have slewed the TGP you created slew errors and therefore it needs something to stabilize on. This is why it briefly goes into INR AREA/POINT before actually going into AREA/POINT. It is essentially saving the image in the image correlator.

47 minutes ago, Rongor said:

Also the CZ next to OSB9 is evidence there is a Cursor Zero available. You can achieve it by pressing that OSB, so what is the benefit of locking out TMS aft to force the pilot to take his hand off a control to press it?
This effectively means an unnecessary degradation of HOTAS capability (admittedly a temporary and arguably unimportant one) and I can't see why avionic designers would intentional prevent TMS aft to function in this very moment.

 

It keeps the CZ on the MFD anytime there is a slew error and pressing the MFD CZ is always treated as the "master" CZ essentially and tells the TGP/SPI to go back to the coords; whereas the HOTAS command is treated as a secondary option and is moreso telling the TGP to go back to the first image in the memory which can only do so if it can see (unmasked).

Similar to how when you close your eyes and then spin yourself, and without opening your eyes try to face towards the last thing you were looking at before you closed your eyes. You can only correlate when you open your eyes. 

[Rongor]

8 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

Because I worked on the F16 and use to mess around with the TGP. And that is how it works. I can promise you it works as advertised.

Thanks, regarding the TMS aft, that will do.

 

8 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

Because the TGP needs an image to go into regular INR in order to stabilize on.

Why though? It is supposed to maintain line of sight to coordinates, which it can do fine (within accuracy limits) during masking and switching steerpoints.
What would be the purpose of a single TMS aft to exit POINT or AREA correlation if even basic INR is also requiring an image to correlate?

So far I understood that INR is maintaining the line of sight to coordinates, even when slewed. That is exactly why it is recommended to switch from AREA or POINT to INR before the TGP is getting masked.

 

Quote

Inertial rate requires an image or it doesnt know what it needs to stabilize on. When you switch STPTs it will stabilize on a set of coords and doesnt need an image on that case.

This is contradicting the manual, which clearly states that there isn't any image processing in INR. Which only makes sense: Since the TGP doesn't need an image to stabilize on a set of coords when switching steerpoints, why would it need an image to maintain line of sight (of course this won't be pin point accurate) on the most recent coords we slewed on? This is basically the idea behind exiting the correlation track modes into INR, so I am a bit confused now about your comment claiming otherwise.

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Edited July 2 by Rongor