How to use ground weapons?

[AeriaGloria]

4 hours ago, Ornithopter said:

I haven't taken the opportunity to try it out, but is the weapon computer capable of doing a "Loft"* or Dive Toss bombing (in the F-4 sense), meaning that I set up in CCRP but either fling the bomb forward by pulling up, or else release the weapon in a climb?

*Not to be confused with the MiG's TOSS mode, which is more like the LABS, over the shoulder delivery.

Yes

[AeriaGloria]

After just now doing runs, I feel that CCIP bombs is very accurate, but not CCRP or pre designation CCRP

[AeriaGloria]

Okay time to amend my previous statement.

It seems to work a very specific way now. 
 

If you have laser range for the entire targeting process, CCIP, it seems to work perfect for anything now

However, unless you have a target altitude set relatively correctly, it will not work for CCRP. 
 

And it’s pretty easy to tell, without target altitude set it’s wildly off, and with target altitude it’s spot on 
 

This seems to even give a range advantage. I can do CCRP way beyond laser range as long as I have a relatively correctly set target altitude. 
 

I wonder if the real 29 is like this. My impression from reading combat manual was that it “remembers” the coordinates of the lasered target when pitching up for CCRP. But it doesn’t mention anything that directly opposes this, and it has 0 mention of a set target altitude. 

Edited November 7 by AeriaGloria

[IvanK]

On 9/29/2025 at 2:50 PM, IvanK said:

Found this in the Alan R. Wise version of the manual Page 131:

"The input of ballistic data for the aerial bombs is carried out before flight from the monitor centre by the ground crew setting the wafer switches (coded input) to positions corresponding to the code of aerial bombs used. Depending on the conditions of combat use and the bombing mode, additional information about the target vertical separation relative to the departure airfield and the selected drop angle of aerial bombs in toss bombing is entered from the input monitor panel"

So my take on that is that certainly for Toss bombing on a pre planned target the system knows the difference in height  a +- DeltaH between the departure airfield and the pre planned target. Now whether that has any input in the other bombing modes in OPT who knows. more info required.

From a previous post of mine. 

[AeriaGloria]

Yeah, just “depending on use and mode” could be a lot (in this case it’s toss/CCRP and I assume anytime in CCIP that laser either can’t find range or is burned out), and while the DTC “target altitude” isn’t In relation to departure airfield, I suppose that it could be input into the actual MiG-29 interface as departure airfield delta H and it’s just simplified to “target altitude” in the DCS DTC for sake of simplicity 

Thing is combat manual says that backup bombing method without laser relies on radar altitude elevation method like Mi-24. Perhaps it only uses this if there is radar altitude present and no laser?

edit: okay, reading it again, it was my own mind that added the word “radar altitude” to “elevation method”

“To solve the aiming problem in the OEPRN, the range to the target (earth's surface) is measured by a laser rangefinder, or the algorithmic range is calculated using the elevation method.”

”When attacking ground targets, the OEPRNK continuously calculates the range to the earth's surface using the elevation method, which is used to solve the aiming problem if the range from the LD is not received.”

Also, I know someone earlier said they used KMGU fine without Coop/retard forward, but for me it seems to work perfect with the switch forward and KMGU, and they hit too long with the switch back. 

 

I would be interested in a native speakers interpretation of the following sentence in this picture. I assume it’d saying something about range being between 500m and Max range, but what I find interesting is it also seems to say max laser range is 3500m?
 

I wonder how it knows that? Perhaps the laser is occasionally triggering in basic mode (0.25 hz) and when range is less then 3.5 km it activates in full mode (2 hz)? Perhaps it is doing its slant range calculation based off “target altitude” elevation method then turns on laser at less then 3.5 km?  

2 hours ago, IvanK said:

From a previous post of mine. 

 

Edited November 7 by AeriaGloria

[Ornithopter]

I noted your bug report on CCRP being short in MP, but my observations only concern SP.

I was practicing today on the Afghanistan map, target at about 600m ASL.  What I noted is that CCRP is very accurate when used like 'Dive Toss', meaning constant pull up through the aiming cue, laser manually turned on before target designation.  In my practice scenario, there is no wind,and I never touched the DTC.  These are the results I'm getting with a drop altitude about 3000m above the target...The vehicle in the lower part of the screenshot is the actual aiming point...thats some good accuracy!

But it seems completely useless when the airplane is trying to do traditional level bombing.  If I designate the target further out, before laser range, and then go back to level flight all the way until the bombs drop, it is very innacurate.  In this case, even if I manually turn the laser on, I guess the target is always too far beneath the nose for the laser to ever see the target.  The geometric method of ranging (what I think you're calling Elevation Method) doesn't seem to work very well, even on completely flat terrain all the way to the target.  By contrast, in the Mi-24, it gives me a very accurate pipper.

So is it fair to say that this non-laser geometric ranging method is not working correctly?

[AeriaGloria]

10 minutes ago, Ornithopter said:

I noted your bug report on CCRP being short in MP, but my observations only concern SP.

I was practicing today on the Afghanistan map, target at about 600m ASL.  What I noted is that CCRP is very accurate when used like 'Dive Toss', meaning constant pull up through the aiming cue, laser manually turned on before target designation.  In my practice scenario, there is no wind,and I never touched the DTC.  These are the results I'm getting with a drop altitude about 3000m above the target...The vehicle in the lower part of the screenshot is the actual aiming point...thats some good accuracy!

But it seems completely useless when the airplane is trying to do traditional level bombing.  If I designate the target further out, before laser range, and then go back to level flight all the way until the bombs drop, it is very innacurate.  In this case, even if I manually turn the laser on, I guess the target is always too far beneath the nose for the laser to ever see the target.  The geometric method of ranging (what I think you're calling Elevation Method) doesn't seem to work very well, even on completely flat terrain all the way to the target.  By contrast, in the Mi-24, it gives me a very accurate pipper.

So is it fair to say that this non-laser geometric ranging method is not working correctly?

The “elevation method” isn’t using radar altitude like Mi-24 but apparently sea level if you don’t set it In DTC. 
 

In your shot here at 600m ASL, you say you didn’t anything in DTC, you just “designated target” with holding lock button and kept flying straight until drop? I’m wondering if maybe target was less then 15 degrees below your nose by time of drop ( laser could still see it, but still be CCRP). After all, even a CCIP drop can occur from as far as 2.5-3 km in a 30-40 degree dive. 

Edited November 8 by AeriaGloria

[Ornithopter]

I attacked the same target in practice about 10 times and now I'm trying to remember the situations I ran???

In all that I've tried I've turned the laser on at the commencement of the run.

In the screenshots above, I was doing what I understand to be Dive Toss, and flew roughly a very spread out U pattern on the bombing run (no more than 30-40 degree dive or climb) with the bomb coming off somewhere before the inflection point as I was pulling upwards towards the aiming cue.  The target altitude was 560m and I thought my release altitude was between 2500m and 3000m asl.  Maybe it was lower or higher, but I don't know, because I was just doing it by eye until the bombs dropped.  Although I think the second cropped screenshot I provided might be a little of an optical illusion with the bomb going out in front of me, I'm not sure that it didn't.  It was a good Toss.  I repeated this a few times and was getting tossing good results almost always.

Before that I tried to do just glide bombing in CCRP mode, which means I designated the target and then tried to keep it as steady as possible until the weapons release.  that was pretty good accuracy if I recall.

Then I tried to do something that was akin to the Phantom's "Laydown" mode.  I'm sure F-4 nerds will correct me if I'm wrong, but you basically designate the target from afar, and then you fly about level to the drop point. In the case of the Phantom, yes, I'm pretty sure it does involve the person in back inputting the target altitude.  But I thought the MiG-29 used some pythagorean means to deduce the slant range, and you're saying it doesn't perhaps because it can't factor in the radar altimeter in that calculation?  In that profile, although I had the laser on, I don't think the laser was ever either in range or in elevation parameters to ever range the target.  Each time I tried to do a level bombing profile, I missed wildly long.

Edited Sunday at 12:25 AM by Ornithopter
Corrected an embarrasing amount of grammar and spelling errors

[AeriaGloria]

It doesn’t use radar altimeter. Laser or set “target altitude” if the laser sees nothing, that’s all there is. That’s why it went long, it was aiming the bomb at a lower sea level elevation at a longer slant range. Set target altitude and it should be fine. 

[Ornithopter]

So is it accurate to require a ground pre-set altitude, instead of radar altimeter, and that's actually how the real thing works?  You're saying that it isn't a bug, right?

Edited Sunday at 12:45 AM by Ornithopter

[AeriaGloria]

53 minutes ago, Ornithopter said:

So is it accurate to require a ground pre-set altitude, instead of radar altimeter, and that's actually how the real thing works?  You're saying that it isn't a bug, right?

Yes, we only have one source but check the post by Ivan K above quoting the Alan Wise translated manual, which mentions needing to set a barometric target altitude “for certain modes.” 

[IvanK]

So if we can track down a some source documentation on how and what ballistics data (codes) are entered in the "Weapon system) pre flight (similar to the methodology detailed to enter INS AD/WYPT data) we might get a better insight.

I would find it most unusual if Radalt data wasn't used as a form of Ranging, when radalt info was available.

[Ornithopter]

35 minutes ago, IvanK said:

So if we can track down a some source documentation on how and what ballistics data (codes) are entered in the "Weapon system) pre flight (similar to the methodology detailed to enter INS AD/WYPT data) we might get a better insight.

I would find it most unusual if Radalt data wasn't used as a form of Ranging, when radalt info was available.

Come to think of it, even if it is supposed to and actually does use radar alt when available, in the laydown delivery I flew, I may very well have been way too high at the time of target designation and it simply was not available.  But if we have to pre-designate a target altitude for that particular form of delivery, I guess that's fine too.

Edited Sunday at 04:24 AM by Ornithopter

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, IvanK said:

So if we can track down a some source documentation on how and what ballistics data (codes) are entered in the "Weapon system) pre flight (similar to the methodology detailed to enter INS AD/WYPT data) we might get a better insight.

I would find it most unusual if Radalt data wasn't used as a form of Ranging, when radalt info was available.

Yeah, honestly makes sense to me if rad alt isn’t used, only has 1000m AGL limit and only up to 15 degree dive/climb angle. It’s unusual yes, but I think for MiG-29, if they are thinking the single target air to ground target attack characteristic of Soviet tactical aviation, possibly at high ranges and altitudes using its speed abilities, a pre set barometric target altitude might make more sense. I am impressed how it allows CCRP at ridiculous ranges lofting the bomb a very far distance. And to think before release I was moping about laser range limiting bomb loft ranges! 
 

There is a Russian manual that includes the ballistic codes for each bomb. I assume each ballistic code also has characteristic time information 

According to MiG-29B book, it sounds like it’s entered into a “PK-31” panel. 
 

“Ballistic parameters are entered into the OEPRNK during bombing preparation using the PK-3I and PVK-3I consoles. Program input into the SN-29 navigation system is performed using the PVP console.”

I wonder if I need to look at nav system chapters instead. 

[IvanK]

If we accept the process described in the Wise version of the Mig29 manual and that the SOP for altimetry use in the MIG29 is to use QFE then its sort of logical.

Preflight the Ground crew set the Ballistics data (Weapon codes)  and the Delta H value of the general target area compared with the departure airfield. Essentially this is in effect setting a Target Area QFE  in the Fire control system.... as long as the pilot does not change his altimeter but keeps it set at Departure airfield QFE until at least weapons release. This means its not tied to a specific waypoint or anything. It is only going to be valid if the weapons are dropped in the Target area used to calculate the delta H value.

However in DCS we enter the target altitude in the DTC in feet amsl (i.e.QNH not delta H) which implies we need to be using QNH at our departure airfield !!

In most cases ranging via the Laser is going to be used. If however the Laser cant provide range then there is a reversionary method using Baro ranging and sight line data.

I still think Radalt range would be more usable. so the ranging priority would be Laser ..... Radalt ...... Baro

Edited Sunday at 08:59 AM by IvanK

[Ornithopter]

21 hours ago, IvanK said:

In most cases ranging via the Laser is going to be used. If however the Laser cant provide range then there is a reversionary method using Baro ranging and sight line data.

I still think Radalt range would be more usable. so the ranging priority would be Laser ..... Radalt ...... Baro

I just re-watched the orginal Wags video for Ground Attack, he when he explains why he made a DTC target point, he says:

"In level terrain like in this mission, it doesn't make that big a deal, but if you have very uneven terrain or even mountainous terrain where your radar altimeter could be very different than the target elevation, somthing like this can be very handy to increase your weapon accuracy."  I believe in his video, the target altitude is a mere 12m above sea level.

So yeah, If he says that, then it appears it is indeed supposed to use the radar altimeter...but I guess if we're too high for the radar altimetry, and we aren't within laser params, then it can only use the pre-set target altitude.  Certainly makes sense.

I haven't tried doing a low altitude level bombing run without laser ranging yet, so maybe if we're low enough and getting good radar altimeter data, (but no laser range) we might still actually get a good geometric slant-range solution even if we don't have pre-set target altitude???

Edited Monday at 03:19 AM by Ornithopter

[AeriaGloria]

I find it also important to follow manual and pitch up 4-5 G for CCRP. 
 

A line in the HUD aircraft datum will extend in the direction you pull G. Once you reach 4-5 G, it then is long enough to touch the center of the pipper at the top making it easier to align your roll so bomb is released centered and not left/right