fixed internally for next update Impossible to do the AFCS start and get damper with Force Feedback, any clue ?

[Psifire]

On 9/20/2025 at 11:31 PM, VANOIS said:

Unfortunately, erasing the axis doesn't help me, only physically disabling the joystick

This would indicate you are having a different issue entirely.  If you unassign the Pitch and Roll Axis from all controllers and you are still getting failures in the BIT your problem isn't being caused by inadvertent inputs from a FFB joystick.  Unfortunately the BIT is rather picky to begin with and can fail for a number of reasons.  It fails if you haven't switched off ground power when you try to run it for instance.  

Edited September 22 by Psifire

[Psifire]

This is an issue with every FFB joystick I'm guessing.  I have a Sidewinder FFB2 and have the same issue.  My custom cold start checklist currently has the following entries after Ground Power Off:

"Unassign Joystick from X and Y Axis"

"Turn On AFCS and wait for BIT to finish"

"Reassign Joystick to X and Y Axis"

Works every time if I do it this way (and get all the other steps correct of course,) fails every time if I do anything else.

[Psifire]

If you get a chance, try this process and see if it works.

After Aekran Test, Engine Start, and Fast Alignment, and with the Ground Power disconnected:

Clear controller mappings for Pitch and Roll from all controllers.

Flip the AFCS switch and allow the BIT to complete (Takes about a minute.  Stops a couple of times during the test)  Wait until Damper Off warning shuts off.

Remap the Pitch and Roll Axis.

This isn't a permanent solution, but it's the best I have so far.

Edited September 22 by Psifire

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

26 minutes ago, Psifire said:

This is an issue with every FFB joystick I'm guessing.

Nope, works just fine with the Rhino This is feedback given by multiple people who have one.

[Psifire]

19 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Nope, works just fine with the Rhino This is feedback given by multiple people who have one.

Yeah, sorry, I was not being very precise.  It's not every FFB joystick.  The Sidewinder requires that you have your hand on the stick for it to apply forces, so it can't move on it's own like the Rhino can.  Also, I'm sure with the Rhino this is a very cool looking process so I get why they included it (your joystick moves the same way the one in the virtual aircraft moves during the test, correct?)  I just wish they had included a check box in the settings to allow you to disable joystick inputs during Autopilot BIT so that it works with my weird, old, awesome 90s joystick that I bought new at Best Buy more than 25 years ago. (And other similarly obscure FFB equiped joysticks.)

Edited September 22 by Psifire
Added missing thought

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

23 minutes ago, Psifire said:

your joystick moves the same way the one in the virtual aircraft moves during the test, correct?

Yes, it does. And in helicopters it can also move on its own if you have handed over flight controls to the copilot, as long as force trim is enabled (this works exceptionally well in the Kiowa for example).
This is a very welcome and interesting feature since it allows for seamless hand-off of controls in multiplayer for example, as long as both players have a FFB stick (I don't know if it actually works, but using this technique it is possible). FFB truly is a gamechanger  

[Psifire]

26 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Yes, it does. And in helicopters it can also move on its own if you have handed over flight controls to the copilot, as long as force trim is enabled (this works exceptionally well in the Kiowa for example).
This is a very welcome and interesting feature since it allows for seamless hand-off of controls in multiplayer for example, as long as both players have a FFB stick (I don't know if it actually works, but using this technique it is possible). FFB truly is a gamechanger  

As someone who has been using FFB since before LOMAC was a thing I totally agree.  To be clear the Sidewinder is true Force Feedback (not a rumble pad), and has fairly strong stick mover forces (not compared to the Moza or the Rhino of course, but pretty strong) they just put in a weird feature where it has a sensor on the joystick and you have to be touching it or it won't apply any forces, not even return to center.  It can be pulling really hard and you release it and it just stays where you released it.  While watching the stick move would be cool, I fly in VR now anyway, and the real advantage of FFB is being able to feel control surface feedback.  I honestly can't imagine flying without that anymore.  Being a Microsoft product, one of the great advantages of the Sidewinder has been that it works with everything.  This is the first time I've had an issue with it's FFB functions on a game that supports FFB, so it made it past 25 years before a developer failed to support it properly.  That's a hell of a run.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

57 minutes ago, Psifire said:

To be clear the Sidewinder is true Force Feedback (not a rumble pad)

I do realise that: I had one back in the old days - though it didn't last very low, sadly.

[Hiob]

Maybe worth noting, that the MS Sidewinder is limited to DirectX effects. Whereas Rhino and Moza rely on a third party application and DCS telemetry to provide a lot of the effects/functions.

[Psifire]

Just now, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I do realise that: I had one back in the old days - though it didn't last very low, sadly.

Really you had one die on you?  Was it a Red Button Version?  Mine has been bulletproof, and it has tens of thousands of hours on it at this point.  The twist died within years of me getting it, but I don't like twist axis on joysticks anyway.  I'd be willing to buy a replacement and retire it (strongly considered the Moza,) but there is really no replacement for it.  If you want desktop Force Feedback without having to mount your controller, your choices are Red Button Sidewinder FFB, or a bunch of far inferior options that are just as old.  I've heard some talk on forums about this being because of a patent troll, but I'm guessing the Sidewinder was just a weird product.  It's also the reason that FFB is so widely supported in software, so you are welcome.

[Psifire]

3 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Maybe worth noting, that the MS Sidewinder is limited to DirectX effects. Whereas Rhino and Moza rely on a third party application and DCS telemetry to provide a lot of the effects/functions.

I did not know that.  Do you know what this means practically?  Are there effects that can't be simulated by the Direct X drivers, or is this an advantage?  Being supported by Direct X explains why it has such wide software adoption, but if it's a limited toolset to work with then it might cause it to have lower fidelity FFB.  If the newer sticks have higher fidelity FFB effects that might be the motivation I need to finally retire the old girl...

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 minutes ago, Psifire said:

Was it a Red Button Version?

To be honest I don't remember. The one that I ended up most happy with and lasted the longest was some Logitech joystick, with throttle slider, joystick with twist axis integrated: Extreme 3D Pro or something.

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, Psifire said:

they just put in a weird feature where it has a sensor on the joystick and you have to be touching it or it won't apply any forces,

That's to prevent it from wacking your cat. Just tape over or fill the holes with silicon. Or do as I did. Open the grip and remove the sensor. If you don't want to cut the cables, you must open the base as well. 

I have five of them, and none of them has broken. None of them are the "red" version. So no sticky rubber too. Which happened to my MS mouse, which is going on 27 years and still strong apart from the rubber issue, which was fixed with Autoglym rubber fix.  

[Psifire]

10 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

To be honest I don't remember. The one that I ended up most happy with and lasted the longest was some Logitech joystick, with throttle slider, joystick with twist axis integrated: Extreme 3D Pro or something.

I'm guessing your Sidewinder was one of the cheap versions.  The good ones seem pretty bullet proof.

4 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

That's to prevent it from wacking your cat. Just tape over or fill the holes with silicon. Or do as I did. Open the grip and remove the sensor. If you don't want to cut the cables, you must open the base as well. 

I have five of them, and none of them has broken. None of them are the "red" version. So no sticky rubber too. Which happened to my MS mouse, which is going on 27 years and still strong apart from the rubber issue, which was fixed with Autoglym rubber fix.  

Wait, are you saying it will complete the AFCS Autopilot BIT with the sensor taped over or disabled?  
 

Edited September 22 by Psifire

[MAXsenna]

7 minutes ago, Psifire said:

I did not know that.  Do you know what this means practically?  Are there effects that can't be simulated by the Direct X drivers, or is this an advantage?  Being supported by Direct X explains why it has such wide software adoption, but if it's a limited toolset to work with then it might cause it to have lower fidelity FFB.  If the newer sticks have higher fidelity FFB effects that might be the motivation I need to finally retire the old girl...

It only means that if effects are not simulated in DirectX, you will not get them. That's were telemetry shines, you can pick and choose the effects and their force to your liking. I'm sure if someone put their mind to it, they could rip and modify the firmware, make new drivers and add telemetry support. That said it's probably better to get a more modern one with "TM+" grip support and stronger motors. 

My main issue is the FFB2, is the hardware defined deadzone, hence the sloppiness in the centre. You probably haven't noticed since you haven't taped over the sensor. 

Cheers! 

6 minutes ago, Psifire said:

Wait, are you saying it will complete the AFCS Autopilot BIT with the sensor taped over or disabled?  

No idea. My PC died, and I haven't bothered to fix it, so I've passed on the latest modules. (FFS haven't been to Iraq and Germany yet and none of the new map updates ) 

Just try to tape it over. You should have done that a long time ago in any case. 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

15 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

My PC died, and I haven't bothered to fix it, so I've passed on the latest modules. (FFS haven't been to Iraq and Germany yet and none of the new map updates )

You're missing out. The latest Iraq update is pretty good, and Germany makes you tear up the first time you take out a helicopter there. I hope you get a new system soon! 

[Psifire]

5 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

It only means that if effects are not simulated in DirectX, you will not get them. That's were telemetry shines, you can pick and choose the effects and their force to your liking. I'm sure if someone put their mind to it, they could rip and modify the firmware, make new drivers and add telemetry support. That said it's probably better to get a more modern one with "TM+" grip support and stronger motors. 

My main issue is the FFB2, is the hardware defined deadzone, hence the sloppiness in the centre. You probably haven't noticed since you haven't taped over the sensor. 

Cheers! 

No idea. My PC died, and I haven't bothered to fix it, so I've passed on the latest modules. (FFS haven't been to Iraq and Germany yet and none of the new map updates ) 

Just try to tape it over. You should have done that a long time ago in any case. 

Nah, I use the "release joystick in strange position" trick often enough that I would miss it if covered the sensor.  Aside from this issue with the BIT test, I have never seen any reason to modify, change, or replace my joystick.  Definitely never noticed a deadzone issue, but that might be because I have not had experience with newer, more precise joysticks, or just that I've been using this one for so long I'm used to it.  I can tell you that I enjoy using unguided weapons, and I am able to employ what I consider to be an incredible amount of precision when doing so.  I recently replaced my Thrustmaster TWCS throttle because it wasn't precise enough so I do pay attention to such things.

[Frost]

You'd have to dial DCS's FFB down to "0" in the controler menu(FF Tune) then it will work*. At least that did it for me.(I have the Moza AB9 Base with the Warthog stick from TM)

*I did that with "Shake" and "Trimmer Force", maybe you'd only need one of the two to be switched off.

Edited September 22 by Frost

[Psifire]

6 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

You're missing out. The latest Iraq update is pretty good, and Germany makes you tear up the first time you take out a helicopter there. I hope you get a new system soon! 

Gotta second both of these sentiments, and also this FF Mig-29A is pretty damn fun to fly once you get past the annoyance of the Autopilot BIT.  Really that is just an issue if you are one of us weirdos who absolutely insists on cold starting your aircraft for every flight. 

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

You're missing out. The latest Iraq update is pretty good, and Germany makes you tear up the first time you take out a helicopter there. I hope you get a new system soon! 

I know!

Thanks!  

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Edited September 22 by MAXsenna

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, Psifire said:

Nah, I use the "release joystick in strange position" trick often enough that I would miss it if covered the sensor.

Not sure what that means, but whatever works for you!

1 hour ago, Psifire said:

Definitely never noticed a deadzone issue, but that might be because I have not had experience with newer, more precise joysticks, or just that I've been using this one for so long I'm used to it. 

The FFB2 is as precise as it gets. Less resolution than newer ones of course. It's easily observable in the controls indicator, DBview, VPC control panel or whatever. The stick has a few mm in the centre where it doesn't register any input. I use an extension so it's even more observable for me. One gets used to it, mostly in AAR, and in helicopters it doesn't matters as much, as one is not trimmed in the centre.  

Cheers! 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, Psifire said:

weirdos who absolutely insists on cold starting your aircraft for every flight

https://giphy.com/gifs/blakelivelyfan-who-me-oh-is-it-O93Bd3yrt1ozxWmU0i

Edited September 22 by Raven (Elysian Angel)
why won't this gif show? :(

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Psifire said:

us weirdos who absolutely insists on cold starting your aircraft for every flight. 

depends on the airframe. Electric Jets - can’t be bothered. 

Steampunk Jets - absolutely. More often than not.

Mi-8 - Every. Single. Time! 

[Psifire]

Nah, I use the "release joystick in strange position" trick often enough that I would miss it if covered the sensor.

Not sure what that means, but whatever works for you! 

 

With the Sidewinder you can move the stick to any position and then just let it go, and it will stay there (provided you haven't covered the sensor) since it only applies return to center forces when the sensor is covered.  Not something I use often, but it can be useful as a sort of defacto auto trimmer in certain circumstances.  You can just put the joystick into the position you want it to hold, and release quickly.  It's a feature very unique to the Sidewinder, and again, I've had this particular joystick for over 25 years.  I'm very used to everything it can do.

[Psifire]

2 hours ago, Hiob said:

depends on the airframe. Electric Jets - can’t be bothered. 

Steampunk Jets - absolutely. More often than not.

Mi-8 - Every. Single. Time! 

To each his own, and to be perfectly honest, it's neither historically accurate nor advantageous to cold start a fast jet.  The ground crew does it IRL.  None of the mil pilots who fly DCS cold start their jets as far as I can tell because they didn't cold start their jets in the military.  I never flew for the military, but I did fly light aircraft for a bit, and I had to both preflight, and cold start my (rented) 172 every time I flew it.  For me a flight starts with a parked cold and dark aircraft, and ends with a parked cold and dark aircraft, preferably in the same spot.  Mi-8 I believe is the hardest start sequence of any of the Helos, and is pretty high up there for any of the aircraft.  It's the only thing I can think of where you need to jump to three different positions to cold start it in VR.  Everything is in awkward positions.  If you have it mapped to keyboard I'm guessing it's not the hardest, but in VR that thing is a beast and I love it (my neck on the other hand hates it.)  You should consider cold starting each jet every once in a blue moon at least IMO.  If you don't you aren't getting to enjoy the wonderful sound track that accompanies the unique start up sequence for each of these aircraft.  It's the fidelity of the details that makes them such special models, and even the electric jets have their own idiosyncratic behaviors.  Do fast alignments of course, but yeah, start them up every once in a while at least.  Unless you just find it boring, in which case skip it.  We do this for fun after all.