RF Hellfires not hitting tracked targets

[Ballinger French]

I'm seeing some weird behavior firing the 114Ls at radar targets correctly handed off to the RF missiles by the FCR.  Specifically, I see this when doing a scanburst of a group of stationary vehicles that include several BMPs, along with a couple of ZSU AAAs and a SA-6.  The FCR in default profile mode will typically highlight and target one of the air defense vehicles in the group (solid diamond over air defense radar target), then properly handoff target data to a waiting RF Hellfire on one of the rails.  The High Action display indicates the relevant 114L is tracking the target in LOBL mode, along with the missile page on the Weapons Display showing a 'T' for target tracking on the bugged missile ready to be fired.  

I fire the missile (in automatic LOBL launch mode), but it utlimately tracks to a nearby BMP instead of the targeted air defense vehicle.  I'm seeing this behavior over and over, and I'm absolutely sure the FCR has bugged the correct target and has properly handed off targeting data to a RF missile which again, indicates it's tracking the target handed off to it before launch.  I originally surmised the Hellfire missiles were simply impacting untargeted vehicles that were somehow in their line of sight to a targeted vehicle, but when switching to F6 missile view before target impact I can clearly see the Hellfires track directly at untargeted BMP vehicles instead of the targeted air defense vehicles they are supposed to be tracking.  

I'm launching attacks basically at treetop level at a target group roughly 2km away on a sloped terrain if this scenario might be contributing to the problem.  I've not noticed this missile behavior previously though and 99 percent of the time my RF missiles have up to now been extremely accurate and reliable.  

Thanks for any insight anyone can provide.  

 

Edited October 23 by Ballinger French

[NeedzWD40]

If the BMP is nearby the target, the missile seeker can still acquire it instead of the intended target. If you utilize the link functionality, TADS should snap to the target that the missile is tracking, which would confirm the actual target. Even then, it's not a guarantee and you're best off shifting to SAL if you want precision or moving around to give the seeker a better view of the target.

[Ignition]

I don't know the aspect of the engagement in this situation, but shouldn't the LOBL be much more reliable than LOAL? At 2km range feels strange the missile switches target in LOBL.

Using the FCR in LOAL in multicrew we have good reliability on our targets, sometimes they switch targets buy its rare.

But when we shoot 114L on LOAL with LASER they almost always miss.

 

[DD_fruitbat]

13 hours ago, Ignition said:

I don't know the aspect of the engagement in this situation, but shouldn't the LOBL be much more reliable than LOAL? At 2km range feels strange the missile switches target in LOBL.

Using the FCR in LOAL in multicrew we have good reliability on our targets, sometimes they switch targets buy its rare.

But when we shoot 114L on LOAL with LASER they almost always miss.

 

errrm, am I missing something here, The 114L is radar guided, how can it be lock on after launch (LOAL)? I thought it needs to have the target location data before it fires, either through the FCR or by lasing beforehand otherwise you don't get launch constraints, and then it looks with its own radar in that area for the target...

Edited October 24 by DD_fruitbat

[admiki]

True, but that only tells where the target should be. It will actually lock once it's own radar picks up the target, hence LOAL.

13 hours ago, Ignition said:

But when we shoot 114L on LOAL with LASER they almost always miss.

Miss or switch targets? If later, I believe it's due to already known problem with INS.

[NeedzWD40]

21 hours ago, Ignition said:

I don't know the aspect of the engagement in this situation, but shouldn't the LOBL be much more reliable than LOAL?

It is, but you're still at the mercy of how it works and ED's implementation of it. Think of it more like the way an AIM-120 works, except in LOBL you're pointing the seeker to a certain place in your field of vision. It's like a flashlight and the bleed over can sometimes reflect more on other objects, so those are what the seeker grabs.

There's flaws in how the missile is currently implemented but unfortunately the documentation I have isn't distro A so I can't share it, though I suspect ED already has that documentation anyways. None of this affects this use case though, as the <2.5km behavior is about right (with some caveats).

[LorenLuke]

10 hours ago, DD_fruitbat said:

errrm, am I missing something here, The 114L is radar guided, how can it be lock on after launch (LOAL)?

10 hours ago, DD_fruitbat said:

then it looks with its own radar in that area for the target...

Asked and answered. In LOAL, the missile's radar doesn't turn on until it's off the rail, meaning it might have an area to go to and search, but it does not, at time of launch, have a thing it's targeting.

[Ignition]

10 hours ago, admiki said:

True, but that only tells where the target should be. It will actually lock once it's own radar picks up the target, hence LOAL.

Miss or switch targets? If later, I believe it's due to already known problem with INS.

Yeah, it switches targets. It's really annoying because it happens almost everytime. Lately we we're using the 114L ONLY with FCR because this way it's precise.

A few months back we were shooting 114L with laser and the BDA X it was always offset by a considerable distance from the target and the missile always missed its target. 

We'll check it again, I read on the forum to "solve" the problem a reset on the INU was needed.

[Grennymaster]

i think i can explain your problem

the Lima Hellfire is not Radar Guided in the kontext of a "traditional" radar guidet missle.

the FCR generates a point on the map, the missle gets this coordinate and calculates in coorparation with the helo the parrabel of the flightpath. after its fired the missle starts its own radar seeker a bit after reaching the zenit point of the parrabel. it will now try to lock the target wich has the best cross sektion. 

This means. if your targets are close toghether, the missle will hit one of the targets. i can hit your designatet one, but it must not  mostly it will not  

this is the great downside of the lima. 

what is a very big advantige of the lima is, you can hit targets that you dont see. We have destroyed an SA 19 in a area in wich we could not engage with K because the line of sight was blocked by forrest an rocks. We market the edge of the rock an shoot 3 Limas, all 3 destroys the SA 19 and the support vehicles in one attack. I also have destroyd a tank behind a building that way if you start to understand the radius of the seeker, you can do "trickshoots" with the missle

what we do in such sitiuations is search with the FCR, and then use the link system to veryfy the target prioritys. if you need to take out specific targets, you use the kilo HF.

The Lima is always LOAL. thats because it uses its own tracker in the missle head.

 

Hope this helps and was understandable, im not as good in english writing .) i get rosty  

 

[LorenLuke]

52 minutes ago, Grennymaster said:

The Lima is always LOAL. thats because it uses its own tracker in the missle head.

Just to correct this fact, the Lima is not always LOAL. Target closer than, I think it's 2km (might be 2.5) are LOBL as well as trying to engage moving targets. The radar (or laser) cues the missile, but since the sensor isn't actively emitting to track the target when generating the data, it can't follow the target afterward. Therefore, to verify the target is where the aircraft believes it is, the missile begins emitting while still on the rail, searching for that radar target, and the HAD will display 'LOBL NORM'. If it cannot locate the target after a few seconds, a 'NO ACQUIRE' message is displayed in the HAD, and launch is inhibited; to reset this, you must de- and re-WAS the missile. If the missile does see what it believes to be the target, you will get a 'RF MSL TRACK' with LOBL symbology (what I call the 'Big Box'). 

In these cases, if you have the 'RF MSL TRACK' text and the Big Box, your missile is emitting on the rail, and it has locked the target before it launches.

[Grennymaster]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb LorenLuke:

Just to correct this fact, the Lima is not always LOAL. Target closer than, I think it's 2km (might be 2.5) are LOBL as well as trying to engage moving targets. The radar (or laser) cues the missile, but since the sensor isn't actively emitting to track the target when generating the data, it can't follow the target afterward. Therefore, to verify the target is where the aircraft believes it is, the missile begins emitting while still on the rail, searching for that radar target, and the HAD will display 'LOBL NORM'. If it cannot locate the target after a few seconds, a 'NO ACQUIRE' message is displayed in the HAD, and launch is inhibited; to reset this, you must de- and re-WAS the missile. If the missile does see what it believes to be the target, you will get a 'RF MSL TRACK' with LOBL symbology (what I call the 'Big Box'). 

In these cases, if you have the 'RF MSL TRACK' text and the Big Box, your missile is emitting on the rail, and it has locked the target before it launches.

you are 100% right here  i completly forgot that thx for clariry for topic creator and remind me  such conversations are what i love about our community

[Ballinger French]

Big thank you to everyone for replying and sharing your knowledge.    I'm starting to align with the missile INS (no pun intended) being somehow skewed at launch and/or the missile radar not being able to distinguish non-moving targets from one another at certain ranges.  I am mostly trying to reconcile how the RF missile on the rail can be actively tracking the target before launch then seemingly lose the target and switch to another before impact.  

Do any of you guys know if the DCS Apache RF missiles actually model Doppler beam sharpening?  In theory, if a RF missile is launched with an aspect angle to the target (rather than a direct line of sight), the missile's radar can achieve higher target fidelity by factoring in radial velocity to the target.  Firing a RF missile in the direct line of sight (relative to the helo's longitudinal axis) presents a difficult task to the missile's Doppler radar in regard to non-moving targets.  A fixed wing fighter uses this Doppler radar weakness when 'notching' or maintaining a constant radius from the attacking aircraft's radar in order to defeat an incoming enemy missile. 

The DCS Apache manual does go in to detail about Doppler beam sharpening but I'm just not sure the principle is actually modeled with RF missiles in the sim.  

Edited Wednesday at 07:38 PM by Ballinger French

[admiki]

2 hours ago, Ballinger French said:

The DCS Apache manual does go in to detail about Doppler beam sharpening but I'm just not sure the principle is actually modeled with RF missiles in the sim.  

That's why missile will turn to the side.

[NeedzWD40]

4 hours ago, Ballinger French said:

Do any of you guys know if the DCS Apache RF missiles actually model Doppler beam sharpening?

Actually? No, it just abstracts it with the left or right curved flight path. Right now, it inaccurately always uses that mechanic regardless of LOBL or LOAL.

[Ballinger French]

2 hours ago, NeedzWD40 said:

Actually? No, it just abstracts it with the left or right curved flight path. Right now, it inaccurately always uses that mechanic regardless of LOBL or LOAL.

Okay, so it basically goes through the motion but there's no actual radar return enhancement?  Aspect angle would then be irrelevant at launch then as long as the missile is within constraints?  

[NeedzWD40]

On 10/29/2025 at 9:47 PM, Ballinger French said:

Okay, so it basically goes through the motion but there's no actual radar return enhancement?  Aspect angle would then be irrelevant at launch then as long as the missile is within constraints?  

Yup. You can adjust whether the missile curves left or right by putting the seeker on the opposite side you want it to curve to, but it won't affect anything beyond that.