Offline competition - show your longest Phoenix hit

[AndrewDCS2005]

There are definitely proficient pilots and RIOs here who mastered AN/AWG-9 and kinetics of AIM-54, so I thought of a small offline competition - show your longest air-to-air hit with a Phoenix

Let's measure it as a straight-line distance to the aerial target at the moment of missile separation, and the missile has to hit the same target. Otherwise no additional limits and conditions for target, launch parameters, weather, etc.

My best result so far: 114nm. Used AIM-54C-Mk60, Locked Tu-160 at 117.5nm, launched at 114nm, Phoenix climbed to 120kft ASL at Mach 2.75 and killed the target. Track attached (Caucasus map for simplicity of viewing).

AIM-54C-Mk60-114nm-kill.trk

[AndrewDCS2005]

A bit surprising there are no responses - I was thinking longer shots are feasible with Phoenix and expected to see some advanced techniques. 
Will try a bit more myself.

[Ivandrov]

5 hours ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

A bit surprising there are no responses - I was thinking longer shots are feasible with Phoenix and expected to see some advanced techniques. 
Will try a bit more myself.

Not really, you are hitting the max range of acquisition at this point for the Blackjack. You may be able to see them in PD search but they drop off in the acquisition mode, until about this range. At this point, the only difference you can make is to go through the controls faster.

The TU-95 or the A-50 can be acquired out from farther but they don't move fast enough to permit that high range of a shot.

The Tu-22m3 will be the one that you can actually acquire at a range that stretches the Phoenix to it's absolute limit. Just under 150nm I've done, but closure needs to be 2100+ knots . Further ranges are impossible as the battery doesn't last long enough to go out farther.

Edited November 1 by Ivandrov

[AndrewDCS2005]

@Ivandrov cool stuff, thanks for hints!

After few tests I've got a kill on Tu-22M3 incoming at M1.8, from F-14B at M1.9 both 35kft ASL, launched AIM-54C-Mk60 from 139.8nm

Missile flew for 3m 15s before hit, which is just 5s short of its battery life at 200s, and covered 84nm ground distance.

You've mentioned hit under 150nm - can you share the track please? My attempts to shoot at a bit longer distance end up with missile battery dead within 2-3s before potential hit, and timing a shot for few sec later brings the distance under 140nm.null

AIM-54C-Mk60-140nm-kill.trk

[JupiterJoe]

Amazing that so much detail is modelled.  A 140 mile kill during that era is astonishing.  Particularly when the target may not even be aware of the missile until it was too late.

Edited Friday at 01:05 PM by JupiterJoe

[Ivandrov]

7 hours ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

@Ivandrov cool stuff, thanks for hints!

After few tests I've got a kill on Tu-22M3 incoming at M1.8, from F-14B at M1.9 both 35kft ASL, launched AIM-54C-Mk60 from 139.8nm

Missile flew for 3m 15s before hit, which is just 5s short of its battery life at 200s, and covered 84nm ground distance.

You've mentioned hit under 150nm - can you share the track please? My attempts to shoot at a bit longer distance end up with missile battery dead within 2-3s before potential hit, and timing a shot for few sec later brings the distance under 140nm.null

AIM-54C-Mk60-140nm-kill.trk 1.29 MB · 2 downloads

Not at the moment, it was a while ago. Try using the Mk.47 motor. It's more efficient at high altitudes than the Mk.60. An F-14A can also achieve Mach 2.0+ with a single missile for extra speed.

Edited November 3 by Ivandrov

[RustBelt]

On 11/2/2025 at 4:56 PM, JupiterJoe said:

Amazing that so much detail is modelled.  A 140 mile kill during that era is astonishing.  Particularly when the target my not even be aware of the missile until it was too late.

Except in the real world they would be aware due to EWR and AWACS radar support as well as various other ELINT assets to say “hey guys there’s a Tomcat out there coming to say hi, and it looks like something fast just came out the front of it. Consider evasion.”

Unless the bombers are carrying non-standoff nukes and the understanding is it’s a one way trip, those AIM-54’s are just being wasted because they’re going to feint and drag and evade. 
 

In a resource and NPC equipment limited environment that may or may not be accurate based on the mission designer….yea it’s cool I guess to basically do Ad brochure shots. 

[Ivandrov]

46 minutes ago, RustBelt said:

Except in the real world they would be aware due to EWR and AWACS radar support as well as various other ELINT assets to say “hey guys there’s a Tomcat out there coming to say hi, and it looks like something fast just came out the front of it. Consider evasion.”

Unless the bombers are carrying non-standoff nukes and the understanding is it’s a one way trip, those AIM-54’s are just being wasted because they’re going to feint and drag and evade. 
 

In a resource and NPC equipment limited environment that may or may not be accurate based on the mission designer….yea it’s cool I guess to basically do Ad brochure shots. 

Eh, there's more than a couple of scenarios I could see where it would be a decent shot to take. Bombers are more likely to be on long-range strike duty lacking coverage by EWR. Especially, if we consider a historical scenario with weaker Soviet airborne radar assets like the TU-126, which wasn't able to detect missile sized objects, much less at decent range.

Edited November 5 by Ivandrov

[RustBelt]

I mean, I’m sure that was the “scenario” it was sold with. 

[Dragon1-1]

6 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Unless the bombers are carrying non-standoff nukes and the understanding is it’s a one way trip, those AIM-54’s are just being wasted because they’re going to feint and drag and evade. 

Depending on the mission being flown, dragging and evading could cost the bombers enough gas to be forced to abort, not to mention in a coordinated operation, they wouldn't make the planned ToT and likely wouldn't be able to maintain formation. A supersonic bomber of that era would typically run in afterburner, so it wouldn't be able to keep doing it for all that long. Turning a bomber around at supersonic speed around takes a long time, especially if you're trying to maintain your speed. The interceptor's missiles don't need to actually hit the target in order not to be wasted. All they need to do is prevent the enemy from accomplishing their mission. 

[Rhrich]

The previous poster is correct. All you want to do is to deny the bomber a chance to strike. 

And, look at it from the other side. The hostile would have to assume it’s been fired upon if it has any indication of 14s. 
That’s what took out so many Iraqis in their war with Iran. 

That’s what made the Tomcat so special in the 70s and 80s. It could shoot before others even would see them on their radar (or rwr, the soviet tech wasn’t what it is ingame). 

Also, don’t assume soviet awacs nearby. They never had many, and they would likely not be used against a CVBG in a full scale war.

[RustBelt]

16 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Depending on the mission being flown, dragging and evading could cost the bombers enough gas to be forced to abort, not to mention in a coordinated operation, they wouldn't make the planned ToT and likely wouldn't be able to maintain formation. A supersonic bomber of that era would typically run in afterburner, so it wouldn't be able to keep doing it for all that long. Turning a bomber around at supersonic speed around takes a long time, especially if you're trying to maintain your speed. The interceptor's missiles don't need to actually hit the target in order not to be wasted. All they need to do is prevent the enemy from accomplishing their mission. 

True a denial works as well as a kill. They just have to believe you can hit them to turn tail. 

[Dragon1-1]

7 hours ago, Rhrich said:

That’s what made the Tomcat so special in the 70s and 80s. It could shoot before others even would see them on their radar (or rwr, the soviet tech wasn’t what it is ingame). 

Even the SPO-15 (which is mostly modeled correctly in our MiG-29) could detect the F-14's radar at a much longer range than the F-14 could see anything on it. The simple reason is, an RWR needs to see the radio signal that has traveled from the radar to it, while the radar needs to see the signal that traveled from the radar to the target and back. However, with no launch warning for the Phoenix, seeing the Tomcat on RWR doesn't help much.

That said, lack of AWACS at sea doesn't mean the Russians would be blind. It can be expected that the bombers would coordinate with surface warfare assets that would provide radar updates to them. The attempt to sink a US CVBG would likely involve a huge, coordinated salvo of ship and air launched cruise missiles. Aircraft would be working with their surface assets on both sides, and this would mean a huge bag of EW tricks in store for both of them. And then, underneath all that, you've got submarines sneaking around. Of course, my comment applies to ships, as well. You don't have to sink the CVB, a gaping hole in the middle of the flight deck is almost as good.

[RustBelt]

On 11/5/2025 at 11:33 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Even the SPO-15 (which is mostly modeled correctly in our MiG-29) could detect the F-14's radar at a much longer range than the F-14 could see anything on it. The simple reason is, an RWR needs to see the radio signal that has traveled from the radar to it, while the radar needs to see the signal that traveled from the radar to the target and back. However, with no launch warning for the Phoenix, seeing the Tomcat on RWR doesn't help much.

That said, lack of AWACS at sea doesn't mean the Russians would be blind. It can be expected that the bombers would coordinate with surface warfare assets that would provide radar updates to them. The attempt to sink a US CVBG would likely involve a huge, coordinated salvo of ship and air launched cruise missiles. Aircraft would be working with their surface assets on both sides, and this would mean a huge bag of EW tricks in store for both of them. And then, underneath all that, you've got submarines sneaking around. Of course, my comment applies to ships, as well. You don't have to sink the CVB, a gaping hole in the middle of the flight deck is almost as good.

I really do wish the “not a cold war” was actually over to see all the actual scenarios and plans from both sides. But, that’s probably going to be another 50+ years at least. Assuming we don’t keep running in circles with stagnating technology like we have since the 90’s.

[AndrewDCS2005]

Good discussion about real-world scenarios of USSR bomber run on USA CVBG and Tomcat mission and tactics.
Putting this aside for a moment to find the limits of DCS F-14+AIM54 implementation, had to run a bit of math.

Assuming both target and ownship alt = 35kft ASL and speed = Mach 2 (593 m/s) and knowing that Phoenix battery dies after 200s (when it covers approximately 86nm ground distance with these launch parameters), the max theoretical range would be = 593 * 200 / 1852 = 64 nm + 86 nm = 150 nm.
However, turns out there is no suitable target in vanilla DCS (without mods) which combines large RCS to be detected > 150nm, and high speed to maintain Mach 2 at high altitude.
Large bombers with high RCS are slow (B-1, Tu-160, Tu-22) and fast fighters with medium RCS (Mig-31, F-14) are detected by AWG-9 at much closer range.

The fastest and largest target is Tu-22M3 with Mach 1.77 speed. In 200s it travels 56.7nm which puts max theoretical range at 86 + 56.7 = 142.7 nm
Subtracting half-second for missile to be still on battery power at hit time, the max possible range for AIM-54 hit would be about 142 nm
 

[Ivandrov]

12 hours ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

Good discussion about real-world scenarios of USSR bomber run on USA CVBG and Tomcat mission and tactics.
Putting this aside for a moment to find the limits of DCS F-14+AIM54 implementation, had to run a bit of math.

Assuming both target and ownship alt = 35kft ASL and speed = Mach 2 (593 m/s) and knowing that Phoenix battery dies after 200s (when it covers approximately 86nm ground distance with these launch parameters), the max theoretical range would be = 593 * 200 / 1852 = 64 nm + 86 nm = 150 nm.
However, turns out there is no suitable target in vanilla DCS (without mods) which combines large RCS to be detected > 150nm, and high speed to maintain Mach 2 at high altitude.
Large bombers with high RCS are slow (B-1, Tu-160, Tu-22) and fast fighters with medium RCS (Mig-31, F-14) are detected by AWG-9 at much closer range.

The fastest and largest target is Tu-22M3 with Mach 1.77 speed. In 200s it travels 56.7nm which puts max theoretical range at 86 + 56.7 = 142.7 nm
Subtracting half-second for missile to be still on battery power at hit time, the max possible range for AIM-54 hit would be about 142 nm
 

TU-22M3 is capable of higher than that. About Mach 1.88 in DCS.

Here's the shot I took.

[Dragon1-1]

Tu-160 should be Mach 2 capable. Not sure if it is in DCS, though.

[draconus]

46 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Tu-160 should be Mach 2 capable. Not sure if it is in DCS, though.

It is.

[AndrewDCS2005]

Thanks @Ivandrov! Indeed, the fastest I can get Tu-22M3 in DCS is Mach 1.88 at 40kft ASL (with 25% fuel and QNH 29.92, my earlier attempts had 100% fuel and lower pressure).

Your shot shows 147.67nm - did Phoenix hit? Can you please share the track?

My best attempt now is 143.8nm with AIM-54C-Mk47 which flew for 198s just 2s short of dead battery.

AIM-54C-Mk47-144nm-kill.trk

[Panny]

I think it was with an earlier build of the Phoenix... but I believe I had got to 180-190nm.

Basically get a whole load of MiG-31s put them into a tight formation to make a completely bonkers radar cross section, at which point you're able to pick them up well out to 200nm. Obviously it helps if they're flying very fast and very high.

Then on your part if you get it right you can launch the Phoenix from 55-60k feet M1.5+ with a 30 degree loft.

But an extremely manufactured scenario.

[Ivandrov]

1 hour ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

Thanks @Ivandrov! Indeed, the fastest I can get Tu-22M3 in DCS is Mach 1.88 at 40kft ASL (with 25% fuel and QNH 29.92, my earlier attempts had 100% fuel and lower pressure).

Your shot shows 147.67nm - did Phoenix hit? Can you please share the track?

My best attempt now is 143.8nm with AIM-54C-Mk47 which flew for 198s just 2s short of dead battery.

AIM-54C-Mk47-144nm-kill.trk 416.3 kB · 1 download

I do not have the track for it. You can see up in the top left in the Tacview where it says AIM-54C has destroyed TU-22M3.

The parameters of the Phoenix in the screenshot match the plane, was going about Mach 2.1.

Edited Tuesday at 02:57 PM by Ivandrov

[AndrewDCS2005]

@Panny woah this would be amazing if replicated. This still matches the conditions I posted, so will definitely try it out.

@Ivandrov will try few more times though at this point it is really just a second or two of launch window to max out the missile flight time before battery goes dead - my longer shots are always few sec late.

[Ivandrov]

8 hours ago, Panny said:

I think it was with an earlier build of the Phoenix... but I believe I had got to 180-190nm.

Basically get a whole load of MiG-31s put them into a tight formation to make a completely bonkers radar cross section, at which point you're able to pick them up well out to 200nm. Obviously it helps if they're flying very fast and very high.

Then on your part if you get it right you can launch the Phoenix from 55-60k feet M1.5+ with a 30 degree loft.

But an extremely manufactured scenario.

Not able to replicate the RCS bit. Still can only detect them at about 100-110nm.