New Steam hardware inbound

[LucShep]

17 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

LOL The support effort ain't exactly gonna be free of cost when users start loading their own OS, I can assure you.  That's a real cost.

And I don't "keep" doing anything as regards prebuilts.  Im pretty sure the last post or two is the first time I said anything about prebuilts.  It just so happens that's *another* bunch of misguided buyers that Valve is counting on, to buy into this "toy priced like a serious piece of hardware".

No, not really. You’re assuming the support load is for OS-tinkerers - it isn’t.

Valve knows perfectly well that 95% of buyers will never install another OS - they have the stats from many thousands (millions?) of Steam Decks.

The “install your own OS” option isn’t there to create support overhead.
It exists so Valve doesn’t artificially lock down the hardware and get roasted by enthusiasts or the tech press.
Same reason the Deck allows dual-boot.
Supporting that tiny minority doesn’t meaningfully increase cost - they already handle it today.

And the “prebuilt myth” angle still misses the real picture.

You keep bringing up your clients with awful prebuilts. But those buyers are exactly the demographic that would benefit from a SteamOS machine - which has no bloatware, no garbage-tier PSUs, no mismatched OEM parts, no thermals designed by a drunk intern, no Windows activation tricks, no BIOS locks.

Your clients come to you because they bought trash.
A Valve-designed, tightly-validated SteamOS (Linux) box aims to be the complete opposite of that.

Calling it a “toy priced like serious hardware” also ignores Valve’s entire hardware philosophy: low margins, ecosystem expansion, long-term thinking.
They can price aggressively (or so everyone hopes) because the real money comes from Steam, not from selling boxes.
The Steam Deck already proved this approach works: sell near cost, grow the ecosystem, and the rest follows.

Whether this machine succeeds or fails comes down to price.
Not whether a handful of people install their own OS, and not whether you’ve had to save people from Walmart prebuilts.
 

Edited 20 hours ago by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

Incidentally, I should say I have no issue at all if someone wants to buy something like this.  Buy what you want.

But I am impressed, and saddened, by the number of people who bought into consoles, SFF machines or prebuilts, only to regret it in time, and wind up spending even more to get into a better platform built on quality, standardized form-factor compatible parts.  So yes, I do strongly recommend people consider carefully what it is they're buying in to.

[Dragon1-1]

28 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

The continued insistence that this is only for casual gamers doesn't explain why they'd expend resources to support loading ones own OS.  They simply would not, because it would be extra cost against zero perceived value.  The fact that this is being marketed as a feature of this device tells us, in no uncertain terms, that this is not just aimed at casual gamers; if it were, this feature would not exist.

They didn't "expand resources" to support loading one's own OS. They just didn't prohibit it. Internally, Steam Machine is just a PC and Steam OS is just a Linux distro that will run on any other PC you care to install it on. Explicitly locking it down would require expanding resources, they didn't bother with that and called it a feature. Classic asbestos-free cereal. Since the OS is completely free, they don't lose any money with that.

You're getting hung up on this single point, but it's, in fact, a completely peripheral feature that's going to be meaningless. I mean, look at the rest of their marketing material. Happy kids in front of a living room TV. Cutesy tone, all easy and set up for you with everything you've got. Does this feel "enthusiast" to you? Enthusiast marketing has lots of Tron lines, PCB-like patterns, whooshy speed lines, "hardcore" on-screen action and stuff like that. Valve isn't going for that, they're clearly going for casual vibe.

Just now, kksnowbear said:

LOL The support effort ain't exactly gonna be free of cost when users start loading their own OS, I can assure you.  That's a real cost.

I'm quite sure they're not counting on this feature being used widely enough to add significant support costs. The vast majority of users are not going to load their own OS, so they're probably going to be right. 

Again, it's a toy, and it's being marketed as a toy. Only rub is, the supposed price point is way too expensive for this to make it as a successful toy.

22 minutes ago, LucShep said:

And that’s why judging this thing as “just another prebuilt PC” is missing the strategic intent entirely.

All fine and dandy, except that at $1200, it's not going to pull in a whole lot of people into PC gaming.  

[kksnowbear]

6 minutes ago, LucShep said:

which has no bloatware, no garbage-tier PSUs, no mismatched OEM parts, no thermals designed by a drunk intern, no Windows activation tricks, no BIOS locks.

You're assuming a ton there, mate.  How can you possibly know all this when they're not even close to selling them yet?

8 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Calling it a “toy priced like serious hardware” also ignores Valve’s entire hardware philosophy:

That was borrowed from someone else (though I did find it amusing and tend to agree).

Again you're just excited about the potential this has to shake up PC gaming.  I get it.

4 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The vast majority of users are not going to load their own OS,

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.  You can guess, speculate or even extrapolate...but you don't know that.

[kksnowbear]

5 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You're getting hung up on this single point

No, I'm not.  It is simply a point that unquestionably proves one facet of my position.  It's not there for console gamers, so it's intended to attract a different group.

[LucShep]

9 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

You're assuming a ton there, mate.  How can you possibly know all this when they're not even close to selling them yet?

I’m not “assuming a ton.”
I’m going by Valve’s proven behaviour with the Steam Deck - not by the horror-show OEM prebuilts you keep referring to.

Valve already ships hardware with:
- zero bloat
- zero OEM corner-cutting
- no garbage PSUs
- no thermal disasters
- no BIOS locks
- no shady activation tricks
- full transparency and repairability

This is their established pattern.
Pretending they’re suddenly going to turn into HP or Walmart because it fits your narrative is what doesn’t make sense.

If anything, the burden of proof is on anyone claiming Valve will abandon their entire hardware philosophy overnight - not on the people pointing to their very public track record.
 

9 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

All fine and dandy, except that at $1200, it's not going to pull in a whole lot of people into PC gaming.  

Exactly - and that’s why the entire discussion hinges on the price.

No one is claiming a $1200 Steam Machine will convert the masses.
The point, as I mentioned before, is that the device has two completely different destinies:

1.     $600 - $700 --> mainstream, console-adjacent, massive adoption potential
2.     $1000 - $1200 --> niche box for a tiny audience

So saying “at $1200 it won’t pull many people in” is just restating what’s already been said.
Nobody disagreed with that.

That’s why judging the whole concept right now, before the price is even known, doesn’t actually lead anywhere.
 

Edited 20 hours ago by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

9 minutes ago, LucShep said:

I’m going by Valve’s proven behaviour

That in no way assures anything about a new product.  Good companies make bad products sometimes. You talk about "judging the whole project right now" as if it's wrong...but that's precisely what youre also doing.  My position is based on the concept being flawed, never mind how well it's executed.

And the other outfits (insert company name here so Luc won't keep accusing me of bringing up prebuilts again) would also assure us that their stuff is perfectly engineered, tightly integrated, blah blah...yet some people who bought those have factually wound up regretting it.

9 minutes ago, LucShep said:

That’s why judging the whole concept right now, before the price is even known, doesn’t actually lead anywhere

There are people who's job it is to know what's what, at times well before users can buy it.

Edited 20 hours ago by kksnowbear

[Dragon1-1]

2 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

No, I'm not.  It is simply a point that unquestionably proves one facet of my position. It's not there for console gamers, so it's intended to attract a different group.

It unquestionably proves that they're willing to entertain the possibility of someone who knows what they're doing buying the machine. Nothing more. They have one feature that's not suited at casual users. One.

You're basically grasping at straws. I will bet any amount of money you name on the majority of Steam Machine users never, ever loading another OS. I say this with absolute confidence, it will be so, because that's just how the wider world works. Outside of enthusiast community, loading your own OS simply isn't done.

Get out of your shop sometimes, you'll see a whole lot of people who are happy with their consoles. Heck, go to Japan, you'll see a PC is a rare and exotic species over there, it's all mobile and consoles, as far as the eye can see. You're basing your experiences on a very small sample of self-selected people who decide to go to your shop. This is an absurdly tiny fraction of all computer users. 

2 minutes ago, LucShep said:

That’s why judging the whole concept right now, before the price is even known, doesn’t actually lead anywhere.

I don't know how credible that info is, but the number doesn't come out of nowhere.

13 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

Apparently the steam machine could be as much as $1.2K. That's a lot for what it is 

If true, that'll pretty much put the Steam Machine into "too expensive to make it" bracket.

[MAXsenna]

This thread's gonna get so locked. 

@72westy @LucShep

I understand completely what you say, and I completely agree. It's exciting times ahead. 

@kksnowbear No one has claimed it's gonna be great for DCS. The question was if it was at all possible to run DCS. You're literally turning into another Sharpy now. Just sayin'! 

You hate Valve and you want this to fail. We get it! 

Happy Saturday everyone! 

Edited 20 hours ago by MAXsenna

[LucShep]

22 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

That in no way assures anything about a new product.  Good companies make bad products sometimes.
 

Of course, nobody said otherwise.
But the point is not that Valve is incapable of making a bad product.
The point is that when a company has a recent, hugely successful, well-supported hardware line in the same domain, it’s reasonable to set expectations based on that.

Track record doesn’t guarantee perfection, but it absolutely informs the baseline.
If it didn’t, nobody in the industry would care about reputation at all.
 

22 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

And the other outfits (insert company name here so Luc won't keep accusing me of bringing up prebuilts again) would also assure us that their stuff is perfectly engineered, tightly integrated, blah blah...yet some people who bought those have factually wound up regretting it.
 

That argument only works if Valve behaved like “other outfits,” which they don’t.

Have you've been in unofficial populated forums with SteamDeck users, where it's pretty visible how happy users seem to be?  
Have you ever even tried a Steam Deck for that matter, to see how good it actually is? 

Valve doesn’t ship bloatware; doesn’t use mystery OEM parts; doesn’t hide thermals behind marketing; doesn’t lock hardware; doesn’t nickel-and-dime repairs; doesn't update hardware and software aggressively; it openly documents and supports modding, repair and OS flexibility.

Comparing this to random OEMs promising “tight integration” is just a false equivalence.

And yes, every device on Earth has a percentage of unhappy customers.
That’s normal.
But the Steam Deck’s satisfaction rate is extremely high - and that is relevant evidence.
 

22 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

There are people who's job it is to know what's what, at times well before users can buy it.
 

Sure - analysts, reviewers, OEM partners, hardware leakers, etc.
But unless you’re claiming to be one of those people (and if you are, you’d be bound by NDA), then we’re all in the same position:  we don’t know the price.

And the price is the entire determining factor of whether this becomes one of two things, either 1) a mainstream PC-console or 2) a niche enthusiast box.

So yes - until the price is known, any prediction is just speculation dressed up as certainty.
 

Edited 20 hours ago by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

1 minute ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You're basing your experiences on a very small sample

Because thats what I'm concerned with.  That's the people I care about helping...the ones who don't necessarily buy in to "If everyone in Japan does it..." lol. The ones who have learned better, usually from their own experience.

[kksnowbear]

14 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

You hate Valve and you want this to fail. We get it! 

I already said, more than once, I'm glad if people are happy with that kind of thing.  I dislike that some are misled by marketing blather and wind up regretting it.  I post a different perspective to show that there are better options for some.

I also said I agree regarding the potential this has to shake up the gaming world, hopefully at MS' expense.

So, if you please, don't turn it into I hate Valve.

13 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Valve doesn’t ship bloatware; doesn’t use mystery OEM parts; doesn’t hide thermals behind marketing; doesn’t lock hardware; doesn’t nickel-and-dime repairs; updates hardware and software aggressively; it openly documents and supports modding, repair and OS flexibility.

OK, let's look at it your way. 

Why doesn't everyone just use a Stream Deck then?

Because lots of people get that there are inherent limitations in any small device that has to deal with heat - among (many) other things.

Edited 20 hours ago by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

16 minutes ago, LucShep said:

we don’t know the price.

There are people who understand that certain things inherently contain weaknesses. They don't need to know a price to identify problematic areas in a design.  Engineers do this all the time, when price isn't even part of the discussion.  Some things are obviously bad ideas, irrespective of cost.  If the design of a bridge won't bear the load, an engineer had better know it, never mind the cost.

Small devices can't effectively deal with heat, and heat is an inherent component of powerful computer components.  Otherwise we'd all be playing DCS in stunning, realistic VR, running on a device built and contained entirely into the frames of a set of eyeglasses.

Edited 20 hours ago by kksnowbear

[MAXsenna]

5 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

I already said, more than once, I'm glad if people are happy with that kind of thing.  I dislike that some are misled by marketing blather and wind up regretting it.

Over four pages?

9 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

I post a different perspective to show that there are better options for some.

Yeah, but those are not the target. They won't care what you say anyway. They want a PC console they can plug into their PC to access Steam. Price will be the factor here.

11 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

I also said I agree regarding the potential this has to shake up the gaming world, hopefully at MS' expense.

That you did.  

11 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

So, if you please, don't turn it into I hate Valve.

I apologise then! 

[Dragon1-1]

19 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Because thats what I'm concerned with.  That's the people I care about helping...the ones who don't necessarily buy in to "If everyone in Japan does it..." lol. The ones who have learned better, usually from their own experience.

So all we need you to do is realize your own little, and I mean little group of people who come to your brick and mortar store are, essentially meaningless for the rest of us, including Valve. You and your folk are a blip, invisible under the normal statistical noise. You, people like you, and all your customers, are about as important in this discussion as a gnat's toot in a hurricane. Even if all of you were to buy Steam Machines for yourself and your own relatives, Valve's global earnings graph is going to look exactly the same as in the (far more likely) case you'd all boycott it.

Now that we established that, can we talk about this thing in context of what this thing means to an average consumer, and what is the place of this little piece of kit on the global market? Which, like I said, includes way more happy Japanese console users than it includes your customers.

6 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Small devices can't effectively deal with heat, and heat is an inherent component of powerful computer components.

That's true, but a device of this size is quite capable of radiating out the TDPs quoted, and a compact design meaning it can use short heat pipes directly to the radiator. Which also means that wherever the hot air exhaust on that thing is, you probably shouldn't put any 3D printed ornaments near...

Again, it's not a high performance piece of kit, it's a console for PC games. It doesn't need to match rigs we build for DCS.

Edited 20 hours ago by Dragon1-1

[MAXsenna]

@Dragon1-1 Exactly! You can even add the members of this forum to the group. 

[kksnowbear]

1 minute ago, MAXsenna said:

Over four pages?

I'm very passionate about what I do.  And, more importantly, there is an ever growing number of people who are glad I do it.  Including some DCS players from this very forum.

A worthy effort, say I.  "If i can help just one..." (and I am fortunate to say I have).

[LucShep]

25 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

OK, let's look at it your way. 

Why doesn't everyone just use a Stream Deck then?

Because lots of people get that there are inherent limitations in any small device that has to deal with heat - among (many) other things.

A handheld and a desktop-class device aren’t interchangeable.

The Steam Deck is definitely not a "power-house" in PC terms. But, really, for what it is, yes it's amazing.
It has limitations because of its size - low thermal headroom, strict power budgets, tiny cooling volume.
Nobody here is claiming otherwise.

The point is simply that Valve has a track record of engineering around those limits, better than most companies in the same class (yes, again judging by the Steam Deck, it is a very good reference and indication). That doesn’t erase physics, but it does say something about expected execution.  
 

17 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

There are people who understand that certain things inherently contain weaknesses. They don't need to know a price to identify problematic areas in a design.  Engineers do this all the time, when price isn't even part of the discussion.  Some things are obviously bad ideas, irrespective of cost.

Small devices can't effectively deal with heat, and heat is an inherent component of powerful computer components.

Sure, some constraints are visible before cost enters the equation.
Small form factors always mean tighter thermals, stricter airflow paths, and harder noise control. Those concerns are valid no matter who builds the thing.

All I’m saying is: the form factor creates the risks, not the fact it’s Valve.
If the final chassis is larger or better ventilated than it looks now, great.
Until then, pointing out the inherent limits of compact designs is just normal hardware analysis, not doomsaying.
 

Edited 19 hours ago by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

30 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

So all we need you to do is realize your own little, and I mean little group of people who come to your brick and mortar store are, essentially meaningless for the rest of us, including Valve.

Nope...but thanks for bordering on personal insult.

When someone - anyone - walks into my "little shop", that person, at least for that moment, is the most important person in the world.  And what I do (or try) is actually earn the trust they show.  I don't recommend crap just because its cute, or novel, or whatever.

Many of them have come back for multiple repeat builds.  I might suggest they like being the center of the universe for that moment.

Edited 19 hours ago by kksnowbear

[MAXsenna]

3 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

I'm very passionate about what I do.  And, more importantly, there is an ever growing number of people who are glad I do it.  Including some DCS players from this very forum.

A worthy effort, say I.  "If i can help just one..." (and I am fortunate to say I have).

Yes! I know you are! I value your input and knowledge. I'm behind on computer building myself. I'm in enterprise solutions, so I'll probably ask you for advice when the time comes. And I know I'll be greatful. But in this thread, you have the wrong audience, so to speak!  

[kksnowbear]

5 minutes ago, LucShep said:

pointing out the inherent limits of compact designs is just normal hardware analysis

Precisely as I am doing.

[Dragon1-1]

4 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Nope...but thanks for bordering on personal insult.

It's not, it's just an accurate assessment of your place in the grander scheme of things. Even the entire flightsim community likely wouldn't move the needle on the aforementioned charts. You, me, everyone we know. We're special cases. That crappy black box is for normal people, which outnumber us quite a bit.

Treating your customers like they're the center of the universe at the moment you're working with them is good work ethic. Treating yourself and your customers as if they're actually the center of the universe outside of that is delusional.

You sound like someone who could use some time on the Total Perspective Vortex.  

Edited 19 hours ago by Dragon1-1

[kksnowbear]

6 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

But in this thread, you have the wrong audience, so to speak!

Well...I'd be happy to consider your point.  Tell me: From your view, what's "wrong" with trying to put informed perspective, based on relevant experiences, where concerned parties will actually see it? 

After all, we have to consider the many readers who never post anything, and may not even be forum members.  Are the lurkers somehow less important?

3 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

That crappy black box is for normal people, which outnumber us quite a bit.

Another quote I find amusing and totally agree with. I actually cracked a smile. Thanks

Edited 19 hours ago by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

@kksnowbear Look, none of this has anything to do with the hardware being discussed.
What me and others were talking was specifically about how Valve designs and supports their devices compared to generic prebuilts - not about anyone’s shop, business, or personal philosophy.

People can treat their customers however they want, that’s not the point here.
The point is simply that Valve’s track record with Steam Deck gives us reasonable expectations about build quality, support, transparency, and long-term updates - which was the context of the discussion.

I’m keeping my comments to the hardware side, not the personal side.
 

Edited 19 hours ago by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

8 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Treating yourself and your customers as if they're actually the center of the universe outside of that is delusional.

Now see?  That's the personal insult part again.  I never said I look at myself that way.  Please don't start with name-calling.

I consider all of those clients the reason I do this.  The center of that universe, as it were.  Be a great world if all businesses held that view.

Edited 19 hours ago by kksnowbear