Saitek Evo Force, or - FFB trimming - a stunning feature, but...

[RealDCSpilot]

@Lava

 

it does it after and "between" trimming. i tested it again with different settings and its much more unpredictable for linear and positive curvature, sometimes it seems to work, most of the time different kick backs. sometimes the trim reset does not even return to center. maybe i should reactivate the hardware spring again...

 

bah, this is pretty much "fighting with the controls"

[Shez]

I haven't played with it much today. Having too much fun flying campains. I'm sure there's got to be a happy medium value there somewhere. Overall at 50% and spring at 100%? Might be worth a shot.

[RealDCSpilot]

hmmm, or i develop a new flight technique called HOTAS&NET - Hands On Throttle And Stick And Never Ever Trimming, - turn all the spring forces back on again and watch the muscles growing on my right arm over time. when the right arm has grown twice as big as the left one, i configure the saitek evo for lefthanded and switch over to the left arm. :joystick:

[Shez]

lol :P

[Pogo]

Let me first say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for what ED has done with Black Shark.

 

Having said that, I can also say that I've had much the same experience with the Logitech Force 3D Pro. The stick works wonderfully in X-Plane and FSX but the Black Shark is virtually un-flyable with it.

 

There is something slightly amiss when ED explains away the trim on non-FFB sticks by saying that the sim was designed for a FFB stick, and yet the only FFB users that I've not seen complaining are the Microsoft FFB 2 users.

 

It may be that the Microsoft product is fully compliant with the full FFB spec while the Logitech and Saitek products aren't, but the MS product is out of production while the Logitech and Saitek products are the most widely available and common FFB sticks.

 

With this in mind, perhaps ED should consider tuning the Black Shark's FFB code?

Edited September 29, 2009 by Pogo

[RealDCSpilot]

@Pogo

 

yeah, you are absolutely right.

 

in times where publishers cut money, projects and close dev.studios (aces - fsx), only to focus on the more profitable casual player "entertainment" market, bringing up something so highly sophisticated like dcs:bs is absolutely rare. when bs came out i bought it instantly. also the price of black shark is totally fair for such an complex high detailed simulation. i definitely will buy dcs: a-10, it'll be a mayor upgrade to dcs and i don't want to miss it.

[RealDCSpilot]

Damn! i did it. a g940 is standing on my desk. first impression: holy sh*t!!!

the force is really strong with this one :smilewink: !

may the evo rest in peace, it's clearly no match for the g940. accuracy and ffb trimming is a completely different story here. i can't even compare it with the evo force. it performes totally different. it's definitely much much better, but requires also massive tuning and personalizing.

since this is my first flightsystem, i have to go back to tuning the controls and then: flightschool!

i'm restarting all over again as a total noob. at my first takeoff, i tried to turn the stick for rudder adjustment... :doh:

 

 

ps: little advice, if you have a wife or girlfriend, be a wise and understanding man. the g940 may become an issue in your relationship (i learnt this the hard way...) :smartass:

[oho]

I had to calculate 600 Euro when planning the purchase - one half for the g940 one half for my wife.

[Kirai]

Damn! i did it. a g940 is standing on my desk. first impression: holy sh*t!!!

the force is really strong with this one :smilewink: !

may the evo rest in peace, it's clearly no match for the g940. accuracy and ffb trimming is a completely different story here. i can't even compare it with the evo force. it performes totally different. it's definitely much much better, but requires also massive tuning and personalizing.

since this is my first flightsystem, i have to go back to tuning the controls and then: flightschool!

i'm restarting all over again as a total noob. at my first takeoff, i tried to turn the stick for rudder adjustment... :doh:

 

 

ps: little advice, if you have a wife or girlfriend, be a wise and understanding man. the g940 may become an issue in your relationship (i learnt this the hard way...) :smartass:

 

Congratz! :D. I got mine yesterday and even though I had the x52 system before I must admit I feel a bit like a noob again :)

[blaster454]

Damn! i did it. a g940 is standing on my desk. first impression: holy sh*t!!!...

 

I can only concur! And welcome to the G940 club! I've had mine a bit more than a week now and it is slowly becoming tuned (after many, many changes to settings :smilewink:). And the profiler SW takes a little bit of experimenting to understanding how it works. I think it is quite powerful and the only thing I'd like to really see added might be logical flag programming ... then this would be a power house flight system that would be hard to beat.

 

And it is almost a starting over with flying the shark :joystick: ... I've always struggled with fine control and trimming, especially at low speeds and altitudes (I have a masterful collection of rotor blade pieces and bent gear frames :lol:). Yesterday, for the first time I was able to fly Para_Bellum's tutorial (from SimHQ) with no issues and feeling like I was in control. Still got a way to go but it is coming together.

 

I've owned the Cougar with force sensing, the X45, X52, and X52 Pro and I can say that I am completely happy with the G940. The X52 Pro goes up on eBay after I return from holiday in October! FFB rules when flying the Shark! :thumbup:

[RealDCSpilot]

well, after some hours testing, pushing pedals, incredible crashes and strange looking stunts...

 

there is, like other users already said, also something wrong with FFB on the g940.

 

1. the problem with curvature filter and accuracy of trim hold position (or lock) appears also on the g940. (e.g. -10 curvature best lock, but too sensitive steering)

 

2. with the evo force, holding down the trim button and moving the stick to a new position was very cool, because during trimming the forces were compensated. this does not work for me and the g940, all forces are active all the time !?

 

3. like lava described, locking the trim gives a hell of a heavy kick back (slack/rock/bang)

its totally different from the saitek evo force, that only wanted to go back to the center...

 

because of this, i use only 50% for ffb strength setting in bs and standart settings in windows at the moment.

 

i really would love to hear something like a recommendation or a statement from ED to this issues. or even better an extra options page with more settings for the ffb trim...

 

the g940 is the! flightsystem for black shark.

 

ok, back to training! :pilotfly:

 

 

ps: i forgot - nice1 oho! that must be love.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Alec Delorean

[ddahlstrom]

Just got my G940 yesterday. Not enough time to evaluate yet, but enough for a few observations and questions. Construction looks very good for starters. My first flight was a wild one, but adequate to see the potential. Lots of things to like, but also lots of things to solve. I can see that between configuration and software updates, the next few months will be an adventure. Compared to my old MSFF Pro (which I haven't used in years due to gameport issues on Vista), the forces seem similarly strong. A quick test of trim left a grin on my face as the positional lock seems much more "correct". I'm not yet sure that I'm getting the trim backlash others are observing, but more stick time will tell. I'm definitely looking forward to getting this thing tuned. Now for the questions.

 

 

1. How are folks dealing with rudder trim? Does one need to center the pedals when trimming?

 

2. Is there a general consensus on whether using the internal controller configuration or the external Logitech profile software is better for programming DCS:BS?

 

3. Is everyone covering the optical sensor on the stick?

 

4. After shutting down a game and leaving the stick dormant, it sometimes produces motor noises continuously until I bump the stick a little. Has anyone else observed this?

[sinelnic]

ps: little advice, if you have a wife or girlfriend, be a wise and understanding man. the g940 may become an issue in your relationship (i learnt this the hard way...) :smartass:

 

What, you mean if I get the G940 she won't notice the four monitors by the PC? I think it's a good deal...

[RealDCSpilot]

@sinelnic

 

that will be a nice psychological experiment! but i think you are already save with your "Patience by Girlfriend "!

 

@ddahlstrom

 

1. i'm also a newbie with pedals, at the moment i'm always keeping an extra eye on the rudder position indicator when trimming. for me, it'll require a lot of training to get used to it.

 

2. didn't look really into it. using the internal controller setup at the moment, starting all over to train basic flying again.

 

3. blocked the sensor

 

4. observed this, but i think it's not unusual, because the stick is trying to go back to "standard" mode.

[Shez]

 

1. How are folks dealing with rudder trim? Does one need to center the pedals when trimming?

 

2. Is there a general consensus on whether using the internal controller configuration or the external Logitech profile software is better for programming DCS:BS?

 

3. Is everyone covering the optical sensor on the stick?

 

4. After shutting down a game and leaving the stick dormant, it sometimes produces motor noises continuously until I bump the stick a little. Has anyone else observed this?

 

1. I'm still trying to figure out the rudder trim. I do center the rudders when trimming but I'm having a heck of time getting the BS to stick to one heading while hovering.

 

2. I just switched to using the logitech software to program all of my buttons. I decided to do this to take advantage of the shift function and the 3 different modes. I've started to have a problem with the button I've designated for locking a target not working, yet the hitting the enter key gives me an instant lock. Also, and i'm not sure if this is due to the G940, i'm having issues where the shvall will just slew left and not stop.

 

3. Yes. i put a piece of electrical tape over the sensor. Before I did so it would move all over the place when I removed my hand. Very bad.

 

4. I've noticed this and just tossed it up to the design of the stick and not a problem.

 

If I could just get the helli to stick to the heading I trim at in a hover i'd be golden! Hopefully I'll get that worked out this weekend.

[GGTharos]

Trim to that heading, then fix up the rudders (because they stay 'trimmed' to where you had them when you trimmed. This is an issue because you're now retrimming heading, therefore it might be a good idea, but not always possible, to center the rudder first, then trim)

 

1. I'm still trying to figure out the rudder trim. I do center the rudders when trimming but I'm having a heck of time getting the BS to stick to one heading while hovering.

[PeterP]

Trim to that heading, then fix up the rudders (because they stay 'trimmed' to where you had them when you trimmed. This is an issue because you're now retrimming heading, therefore it might be a good idea, but not always possible, to center the rudder first, then trim)

Or use on your trimmer button a macro like I describe in this post:

How to unchain the rudder from trim

-after that you don't have to worry any more where your feet are heading , like a real KA-50 pilot does.

[Shez]

Hmm. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to program that into my G940. Thanks for the tip.

[Kirai]

I also have problems with shkval. It moves up and sometimes left without me doing anything (this is when using the minijoy). One more thing that I need answers for is how the FFB should behave. I tested the stick with FSX and when I fly straight the stick is lose but not to lose and easy to use and when I turn heavy or go up or down hard I feel the force kicking in, its easy to feel the plane here but in DCS it always have a hard tension to it besides when the stick is centered cause in the center there is a deadzone about 10-20% where the stick is verry lose, to lose and its hard to make the bird stay in one place. Is this the same for you?

Edited October 2, 2009 by Kirai

[Kirai]

Or use on your trimmer button a macro like I describe in this post:

How to unchain the rudder from trim

-after that you don't have to worry any more where your feet are heading , like a real KA-50 pilot does.

 

This sounds interesting but I'm a noob when it comes to this so how do I make this work for the G940? I have read the script but I don't know how to use it :)

[Shez]

I had to play with the FFB levels in the joystick program to get the G940 to act like I feel it should. Mine is set where there is hardly any resistance in the joystick but it will stay exactly where I leave it. There's no FFB coming from the game anyway. The FFB is used to keep the joystick where it is when you trim. Unlike the standard joystick where you have to trim then return the joystick to center real quick. Also make sure you put a piece of tape over the sensor on the right side of the stick. That will keep the stick from moving around if you take your hand off.

[morg]

shez, so what are your settings? :) Did you have to play with the curvature in BS as well? 'cause my stick does not stay exactly where i trim...

[RealDCSpilot]

"...unchain the rudder from trim..." nice find. sounds interesting, would be very helpful, is that some sort of a bug?

 

morg, don't use any other curvature than linear, the ffb-trim will go "out of sync".

 

i played around with saturation a little bit, maybe that will help you, but there is a strange "square" of weak force around the center, surrounded by a hard "wall" of force. hardly to describe...

 

also, i really would like to know what the vibration (0...100) ffb setting is. it seems to have no impact at all.

 

in one of the gazillion test configs i tried out, there was also a setting where i don't needed to trim anymore, i just could leave the stick and it was holding it's position without doing anything. it's all becoming very confusing, i'll make a complete reinstall of bs today.

 

there is also a funny little test for the stunning accuracy of the FFB-motors of the g940:

 

- linear curvature setting

- let go of the stick (sensor taped!)

- steer with cursor keys

 

the stick is moving very exactly in any position and stays there! the saitek evo force is no match against this.

[Shez]

shez, so what are your settings? :) Did you have to play with the curvature in BS as well? 'cause my stick does not stay exactly where i trim...

 

Hmm i'm at work atm. So this will be from memory and might have some errors.

 

If you open the calibration options in windows and go to the advanced options you should see 3 sliders for the FFB settings. General, Spring, and Damping. I noticed if I turned General and Dampening to 0. the stick would stay exactly where I trimmed it. But, there was zero resistance in the sticks movements. And since there is no actuall Force Feedback in the game I found this acceptable. If you would like more resistance you could probable increase those two settings untill you found a setting you liked and still got sollid trim positioning.

 

 

 

I leave the in game settings as default. No curves or saturation.

 

I hope that makes since. I'll update this post when I get home with more details.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Shez

[morg]

Nice, thanks (both shez and alec)

 

Hopyfully i will get more time to test soon. One thing i noticed today however was that my stick reached 100% (in the game controller settings) even though i still could move it almost an inch further. Thats alot of loss of precision... should maybe try to erase calibration even though the stick itself cant be calibrated