How to unchain the rudder from trim

Problem :

Without FFB rudders (Are there any?!) you have to readjust you physically position of you rudders every time you trim. Because trimming adds input to your current rudder position. This is not every time very helpfully and can lead to uncontrollable turning and finally in a crash.... if you are not watching your feet carefully each time you trim.

One well known example:

You are flying with 250Km/h straight forward and have to add constant rudder to eliminate the natural behaviour of the Ka-50 to turn a little on high velocity.

- You want to trim you cyclic a little froward to relax your hand - you hit the trim button ... and your rotors clash - just because you forgot to readjust your feet :

the trim plus your current position of your feet was too much rudder input for your rotor blades...:(

I was searching long for a solution to unchain the rudders and the Trim of the cyclic.

I finally found a solution more or less by accident:

I haven't connected my Saitek Rudder pedals correctly before flight and I tried to control the rudders with the keyboard while controlling the rest with my Cougar.

While doing this I realised that after hitting only short "x" or "y" (Default keys for rudder control) it instantly overrides the trimmed position of the Rudders and it will be in a neutral position again wile the cyclic remains in trimmed position.

Than I added a macro inside of DCS World that does exactly the same after you have released the trimmer.

The Readme.txt:

Unchain Rudder from Trim Ka-50 DCS world 1.2.6

 

-all test are made in DCS World 1.2.6-

 

 

This implements a new trimmer logic for the Ka-50.

So you don't need to recentre the rudder after you have released the Trimmer.

You just have to move your rudders a little tiny bit to get to your old rudder position.

 

You need to unchek "central position trimmer mode " inside DCS to make it work.

See "non-ffbusers.jpg"

 

 

(BTW: this mod is JSGME compatible)

 

Manual Installation:

-------------

 

Copy the content of the

"Unchain Rudder from Trim Ka-50 DCS World" folder into the same folder of your DCS World install and allow to overwrite.

Example path:

H:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\

 

 

-------------

 

Un-installation :

 

Run a DCS Repair

 

 

Please read here for a detailed explanation >> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=40624

 

 

-PeterP

 

14.09.2013

File: Unchain Rudder from Trim Ka-50 - DCS World.rar

Size: 110.38 Kb

[download]

Non-FFB users have to use this settings for the Trimmer to make this mod work:

ACHTUNG! Please ignore following posts that explain how to script it for your controller!- This is not needed any more when using attached files.

These Posts where made before I learned how to write macros inside of DCS.

BTW and @ all :

A interesting thread: Can we have this little Huey feature in our BS?

 

Please leave your opinion in this link above - maybe you get heard.

BRILLIANT..!

There will be a set of FFB Rudder pedals at my place in a couple of days. But untill I get them working I'll definately be using your idea.. Just Brilliant.!

YES brilliant thanks for the post!

gr mike

Brilliant idea indeed. Is it a perfect solution? Almost.

I've tested it without a macro yet. What happened:

- trimmed for turn using all axes including rudder

- didn't move any controls to neutrals after the trim button was released

- hit z or x for a short period of time

- in-game pedals reverted to neutrum even though I were still pressing against my real rudder pedals

What a perfect macro should do would be to pretend pedals got to neutrum but revert the in-game pedals to the position from the moment the trim button was released.

What it actually does - it (only?) ensures that cyclic pitch and roll is not blocked only because you can't hit the sweet spot neutrum on your real rudder pedals. I'm trying to create a macro as we speak...

EDIT:

X-52 PRO macro ready. Testing... It works! Limitation - I used 25 s T press so you can't fly with trim pressed down longer than 25 s :) I'll make it a minute and it will be ready for release :)

Ready for download (see my sig ; package).

EDIT 2:

A problem occurs when used in-game.

When tested in SST tester it behaves 100% as I would hold keyboard T key and then tapped Z upon T release. But when in-game it goes haywire. When I press my macro-trim it instantly adds addition input to that already trimmed e.g. when I trim my heli for acceleration (cyclc pitch down) it immediately adds even more cyclic! Any hints?

trim-macro3.trk

trim-macro3_releaseproblem.trk

This approach has been around for a while. I found it seeming like a good solution but eventually abandoned it (as for reasons, you can see my comments in http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=763916&postcount=7). In addition to it having some reliability issues, I also found that unless I did this after moving the rudder pedals back to center, the pedals were now unnaturally centered. Using the control indicator (RCtrl-Enter) while flying helps to see the exact artifacts of this, and especially how positional uncertainty can build up over time.

Of course, if your flying is improved by using this, then by virtue of that alone it's a good trick! The compromise I eventually reached (after that original post), however, is to just make sure that I only trim under conditions when my pedals are already centered (since the reality is that I never actually want my rudders trimmed, only the cyclic). This sometimes makes me delay executing a trim longer than I might otherwise, but short of implementation of my preferred solution (http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=882381&postcount=10), this is about the simplest and most reliable solution I've found.

I use an X-52 - what I did to address this problem was I have trim set to my C key (like most I would think) and I have the Z key (to center rudder) set to my pinky + C key. I did this because I found that I didn't always want to center my rudder trim, sometimes I wanted a bit of rudder.

I've had that set up now for about a year and it's worked great.

Unfortunately for Saitek owners...

Finally it works for Saitek, I have implemented the same with a slice deference !

At Press window, cut the released T button at 60,000 and paste it at the beginning of release window before zzxx sequence !

This way it worked for me like TTZZXX. Also use minimal timings as it is critical for the accuracy of trimming and bumping behavior

PeterP thank you for your excellent idea. I have further improved the stability of flight using this trick.

:thumbup: if it works that is :)

Thanks Bucic and Sungsam for the X52 research!

Updated the first post.

Update:

Here is a autokotkey script that does the same and works with every joystick -just change all "4Joy15" entries to your trim button ID:

#NoEnv  ; Recommended for performance and compatibility with future AutoHotkey releases.
#Warn  ; Recommended for catching common errors.
SendMode Input  ; Recommended for new scripts due to its superior speed and reliability.
SetWorkingDir %A_ScriptDir%  ; Ensures a consistent starting directory.

4Joy15:: ; This is my TRim Jostick button = Jostick ID #4 Button 15 -change this to your trim button. 
    ; Use joystick test from autohotkey help to locate your button ID.

KeyWait 4Joy15  ; Wait for the user to release the joystick button. - "4Joy15" change this to your trim button. 

sleep 10

Sendevent {z Down}{x Down}{z Up}{x Up} ; unchains the rudder from trim  and brings the rudder in the physical position of my feet !! swap "Z" to  "Y" if you use a QWERTZ keyboard!
return

Make sure your button you want to use for trim is assigned as Trim in DCS !!!

Edit:

About the "Z" key in the script above:

forgot to mention that you need to swap it to "Y" if you use a QWERTZ keyboard.

Optional - here is a autokotkey script that does the same and works with every joystick [...]

Nice idea! I've made a couple of modifications, removing the loop, reduced the delays, and I guess you don't want to press down the y-key but the z-key instead?

The key delays plays some role, I've come to the following values through trial/error. Delay between presses is set to 1 millisecond and press duration to none. Have not had any issues with it yet.

1Joy3:: ; Use joystick test from autohotkey help to locate your button.
SetKeyDelay, 1, -1
send {t down}    ; Press down t
KeyWait 1Joy3    ; Wait for the user to release the joystick button.
send {t up}      ; Release t
Sendevent {z Down}{x Down}{z Up}{x Up} ; unchain rudder from trim
return

Thanks for the tweaking and posting it !

Yes - key-delay is important that DirectX applications will recognize the command correctly.

I simply made a loop to make it 100% sure it will not misinterpreted it as a release when the pc have a stutter...

About the "Y" key:

I have a German QWERTZ layout - and forgot to mention that you need to swap it to "Z" if you use a QWERTY keyboard.

Edited the postings with this info and set "Z" to default.

Yes - key-delay is important that DirectX applications will recognize the command correctly.

I simply made a loop to make it 100% sure it will not misinterpreted it as a release when the pc have a stutter...

Yeah I guess the above isn't "stutter-safe"!

About the "Y" key:

I have a German QWERTZ layout - and forgot to mention that you need to swap it to "Z" if you use a QWERTY keyboard.

Edited the postings with this info and set "Z" to default.

And then it makes perfectly sense! ;)

I wanted also to get rid of the loop command and I was able to streamline the script. Now it works with three lines of code. And is immune against stutters.:)

4Joy15:: ; This is my TRim Jostick button = Jostick ID #4 Button 15 -change this to your trim button. 
    ; Use joystick test from autohotkey help to locate your button ID.

KeyWait 4Joy15  ; Wait for the user to release the joystick button. - "4Joy15" change this to your trim button. 

sleep 10

Sendevent {z Down}{x Down}{z Up}{x Up} ; unchains the rudder from trim and brings the rudder in the physical position of my feet !! swap "Z" to "Y" if you use a QWERTZ keyboard!
return

Now you must assign the button you use for this script first in DCS as trim.

Many thanks PeterP, really usefull!

Regards!

Cool, I will have to try this. I think I now understand how I shredded my rotors.

Now if I can just quit blowing up my engines!:D

Now you must assign the button you use for this script first in DCS as trim.

Nice to use the autohotkey-script for only recentering the rudder! :thumbup:

I do not have much insight on the difference between sendevent and sendinput. But as they state that sendinput is faster and more reliable (??!), so I'm sticking with that for the moment :renske: When using sendinput instead of sendevent the set SetKeyDelay has effect and you need to sleep for 1ms between key-down and key-up:

#NoEnv ; Recommended for performance and compatibility with future AutoHotkey releases.
#Warn ; Recommended for catching common errors
SendMode Input ; Recommended for new scripts due to its superior speed and reliability.
SetWorkingDir %A_ScriptDir% ; Ensures a consistent starting dir.

1Joy3:: ; Use joystick test from autohotkey help to locate your trim button used in Black Shark
   KeyWait 1Joy3 ; Wait for the user to release the joystick button
   send {z Down}{x Down} ; unchain rudder from trim (set)
   sleep 1 ; needed delay
   send {z Up}{x Up} ; unchain rudder from trim (release) swap "Z" to "Y" if you use a QWERTZ keyboard!
return

:joystick: :pilotfly:

Or you can just forgo using the sim's own trim. Using an auto-trimming GlovePIE script with PPJoy and do your yaw manually; just keeping the yaw dampening channel on. By the way, I'll have some X65f scripts soon. It works even better for auto trimming/trim update AFCS mimicking than the X52. And looks like a Comanche SAC.

Thx PeterP!

much appeciated that you've shared these details.:thumbup:

works perfectly fine for WH+TARGET too.

have fun...take care

flex

how can I get this to work for my TM Warthog stick?

I don't know how to do this with Target (i don't own a Warthog), but the AHK script should work for every controller with a little edit - just read again:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1322252#post1322252

how can I get this to work for my TM Warthog stick?

I can help you recreate this in Target but, it will require some work unless you are already using a Target profile. The way Target works is that you can't just configure one button, instead you have to create a configuration for the entire controller.

Most likely, I would create a profile for just the stick and leave the throttle alone, assuming you have trim assigned to a button on your stick.

Also, what version of Black Shark are we talking about?

Let me know how you are currently set up and we can go from their.

Blacks hark 2 is what I fly, would be great to do this.

Blacks hark 2 is what I fly, would be great to do this.

What exactly you want to do when talking of "be great to do this" ?

Cichlidfan has at least to know on which button you assigned the trim.

....I can confirm that he is not a mentalist - he needs more info! ;)

Let me know how you are currently set up and we can go from their.

Btw: why you aren't using the AHK script ?! - activating it is only a single mouse click (easier than pulling out target and loading a profile)- And I think my documentation is that good that everyone can set it up within 2min.

You just have to know the Button and Joystick ID you want to use for trim.

Or simply tell us this info.