How to create points to direct wingmen to that is not a target or ingresspoint??

[Cradle]

Hello again.. in my last post i wondered about the LOS and the often "unfair" way anti air could spot me in places they shouldnt.. after 10 more flight hours i´ve started to find my way round the battlefield some more and found that once invisible targets can be seen and destroyed if the aircraft is positioned right. :) patience IS the key as been pointed out...

 

but in this thread i want to learn more about the possibilities for creation of points to send wingmen to. I cant send them to a place to hover if i cant give them a point via the DL. i can create a targetpoint by typing in the coorinates but since i dont know what coordinates to give i wondered if it isnt possible to make target point in the same maner as i make the ingress points with the shkval? perhapps it is very easy but i dont remember seeing it in any tutorial. I know how to add/edit waypoints in the ABRIS and suspect i can make targetpoint there aswell?

 

the thing is that i want my wingman to fly to a place and hover without any other order given. if i want him to attack i sent the attack/ingress points and tell him to engage.. but he wont go to an ingress point unless ordered to engage a target also? what are my options here?

 

while we are at it.. how do i know what cooridnates a certain place on the ground -say 3 km ahead of my aircraft is? i havent really researched this further so perhapps its very simple just checkling F12 or so.. but i might just ask.. i always seem to get new and interesteing information when reading the forums.. cheers to you all that put so much time and effort here!

[Martillo1]

They will not hover, so do not bother sending them anywhere to do that.

[Cradle]

I might be wrong but didint the wingman hover in the "data link" tutorial video? but that was on a all ready present point.

[Feuerfalke]

It seems the current version has a bug with the wingman not being able to maintain an assigned position. :(

[enigma6584]

That is my take on it as well. It says in the manual that they (wingman) should go to assigned point and hover if no attack orders are given but as previously said by others, they do not stay in place. They immediately return to you.

[Cradle]

ok.. after some experimenting i have figured out that if i make a target point with the PVI-800 using the coordinates i get from the map i can send the wingman there and he WILL hover AND engage targets from that stand off position. Its a bit of a hassle to have to enter the didgits by hand but its sure better than having the wingman soaring stright at the defenses when ordered to engage. It really whould be more options to how he should act..

[Frederf]

If you map your PVI buttons to your numberpad then you can add in target points pretty fast manually once you get the hang for it. Adjust your ABRIS to read in the same coordinate format as the PVI too (X.XX' and not X' Y").

 

A lot of times the AI wingman will try to come to a stationary hover but he will continue flying slowly in whatever direction he was pointing. Sometimes they stop, sometimes they don't.

 

The ERBL tool in ABRIS is a good way to pull off coordinate numbers to type into the PVI. You can put the cursor over the target, click, and then drag the other end of the two-point-and-a-line tool to exactly the range-bearing you want from the first point and viola, instant numbers.

 

I found it troublesome to send the wingman to anywhere I can't see with my Shkval because out of sight = out of radio range. So if I send him behind a mountain he's out of radio contact for me to order an attack.

 

As for getting the wingman to standoff attack with Vikhrs...good luck! It can be done but it's randomly hit and miss to get him to do so.

[Cradle]

It would seem that the wingmens AI isnt up to speed? i would like to be able to "control" them more precise.. such like giving "hold" and "change altitude" orders, and more options to make them scan the area and do stand off attacks instead of acting suicidical like is the case now. and i would like to have them act more on their own when in combat. sometimes i have showered an area with rockets and shells and done multiple kills, but the wingman havent even fired anything even tough i gave him orders to attack ground targets. And one other thing that totally drives me nuts is that they seem to have a infinite number of flares since they often, when in formation, drops one every fifth second or so even tough no SAM has launched. perhapps they are bored? :) -Me like shiny smoke thing!

[Frederf]

The amount of control over the AI wingmen is limited. There is a surprising set of required actions that you can get them to do using seemingly unrelated basic commands though. Altitude is either your altitude or low in a "Hold Position" command. They can go higher by a bit in the "overwatch" position. On the whole, I cannot see having more, fine control over wingman altitude actually having a practical combat benefit.

 

Certainly the most-wanted feature missing from the wingman is the ability to do standoff attacks with Vikhrs from either stationary or a racetrack like route.

 

As far as I know, outside of some special mission programming, the wingmen do not release preemptive flares (and in fact such flares do nothing against IR SAMs besides alert them to your presence). I don't know if they have flares unlimited or not since I've never heard of one running out.

[slug88]

Certainly the most-wanted feature missing from the wingman is the ability to do standoff attacks with Vikhrs from either stationary or a racetrack like route.

 

I manage to get them to launch Vikhr's from stationary standoff points all the time, via datalink ingress points.

 

Getting them to hover at set locations was trivial before the patch (simply lase a spot on the ground, and send it to the wingman, no need to even store it in your own computer), but I agree that something's up since the patch, and they're reluctant to hover. Something definitely went wrong somewhere.

[Frederf]

I've gotten standoff behavior from the AI before, possibly with DL ingress points (I don't remember), but it was never reliable.

 

Right now I've noticed that the AI hold position routine is a bit buggy. You can watch them exactly as they are told to go to a point or to hold position. They go "static" and shut their brains off like they are in a hover but they aren't. They slowly creep away.

 

Personally I want to get into the LUA files for the radio formation commands. It's just all screwed up right now. The words and the menu text are extremely misleading vs. what the commands actually do.

[majapahit]

If you map your PVI buttons to your numberpad then you can add in target points pretty fast manually once you get the hang for it. Adjust your ABRIS to read in the same coordinate format as the PVI too (X.XX' and not X' Y").

@Frederf

I change my ABRIS setup to decimal minutes

but when I send my wingman to the coordinates he goes waaaaay byond the coordinates point (where it is supposed to be)

 

sure this works?

 

someone posted a calculation:

In ABRIS you can see degrees, minutes and seconds.

In PVI-800 you can see degrees, minutes and after dot one tens of degrees and minutes

in ABRIS you have 40 04' 14'' = 40 + 4/60 + 14/3600 = 40.07055555 in PVI-800

 

would this work?

 

thx

[Martillo1]

@Frederf

I change my ABRIS setup to decimal minutes

but when I send my wingman to the coordinates he goes waaaaay byond the coordinates point (where it is supposed to be)

 

sure this works?

 

someone posted a calculation:

 

 

would this work?

 

thx

 

Change the way ABRIS shows coordinates. IIRC is 'menu' -> 'setup' -> 'units'.

[majapahit]

Change the way ABRIS shows coordinates. IIRC is 'menu' -> 'setup' -> 'units'.

thats what i did

it sends the wingman way over the maintain range

??

[StrongHarm]

So if you have the coords 44'45.46 in the ABRIS, you would type 044458 into the PVI

 

Why did the 46 minutes in the coords turn to an 8? Let's look at the numbers (0)-(44)-(45)-( 8 )

0

= Prefix to indentify the coord as positive

(not a number translated form the ABRIS coords)

44

= Longitude

45

= Latitude

8

= Which is

46

minutes, divided by 60

(which is 0.76)

, rounded to the nearest tenth

( 76 rounds up to

8

)

 

Rather than using the ERBL, I like to insert a new waypoint or map point into the ABRIS as a reference. At first this took much longer than doing a quick ERBL or INFO, but now I'm so used to it that it takes no time. Plus you get perm intel on the map point like coords, time and bearing to target, elevation, range, etc. Take note that if you create a map point in the ABRIS, then translate it to a PVI NAV/TGT, when you select that NAV/TGT and uncage your shkval (turn on TV) your tracking cursor on your targeting system automatically moves to that NAV/TGT.

 

A practical use of this would be something I experienced yesterday. There was a SAM site equipped with a radar truck, so he was able to track, target, and eliminate me very quickly. I was able to identify the origin of the missile trail coming from a bend in the road before I ejected. Once I got in a new bird I pulled up my ABRIS and found that bend in the road on the map. I plotted course waypoints (manual p231) into the ABRIS that would take me 5km from the SAM site, but behind a mountain. I marked the SAM site on the ABRIS as an INFO type map point named 'SAM' (man p253). I saved the ABRIS info and made it active. I then pulled up the info point named 'SAM' and translated the coords into the PVI (man p319). I followed my ABRIS waypoints to the ingress area behind the mountain, initiated a hover, activated NAV/TGT 2, uncaged my Shkval, and as soon as I crested the mountain I was viewing the SAM site zoomed in on my targeting system. I was able to get a lock and release within seconds.

[Frederf]

@Frederf

I change my ABRIS setup to decimal minutes

but when I send my wingman to the coordinates he goes waaaaay byond the coordinates point (where it is supposed to be)

 

sure this works?

 

someone posted a calculation:

 

 

would this work?

 

thx

 

The problem with a wingman traveling beyond his "stop point" is a separate bug in DCS. You can do everything right to give a wingman a destination and this bug will cause him to keep going. Do not feel bad. :)

 

The calculation is to convert coordinate formats. It is like the ABRIS tells you "Lunch is in 2 hours, 30 minutes" and the PVI can only understand "Lunch is in 2.5 hours." They are the same thing but in a different format.

 

ABRIS: 041°11'30'' N

PVI: 041°11.5' N

 

You can see that both of the above look like different numbers but are really the same place. "Eleven minutes and thirty seconds" and "Eleven and a half minutes" are the same thing.

 

You can do two things when taking a coordinate from ABRIS and putting it to PVI-800: You can convert the format every time or you can change the format the ABRIS uses so it matches the PVI. If you change the display on the ABRIS to the other format then there is no need to convert with a formula since they are compatible already.

[majapahit]

OK so the 'going' wingman is a seperate bug, solves 1 mistery

 

still I notice the coordinates on the F10 map, also, are way different from the ABRIS-map (and the PVI)

 

I saw a posting of someone who says he's doing this 'send to TP' all the time, so if there's a 'running away' bug from the wingman, how come he so happy?

And apart from the 'hover at' bug, that doesnt work either (anymore, 1.0.1), what left for a enterprising wing commander? :mad:

[norm]

i wish there was a way to get them to scan for targets and stay in formation. is there a way to order that.

[Frederf]

still I notice the coordinates on the F10 map, also, are way different from the ABRIS-map (and the PVI)

 

The F10 map and ABRIS (not edited) use the same format. The F10 map shows 44'05'22'' only because the programmer for this didn't know how to make the ° symbol. He means 44°05'22'' but he didn't know how to make ° symbol so he used ' instead. We know 44'05'22'' is not correct way to write it at any time.

 

The PVI uses minutes.decimalMinutes' instead of minutes'seconds'' so 44°05'22'' looks like 44°05.36666666' instead. Of course PVI has only so many digits to display so it becomes rounded to 44°05.4'

 

I saw a posting of someone who says he's doing this 'send to TP' all the time, so if there's a 'running away' bug from the wingman, how come he so happy?

And apart from the 'hover at' bug, that doesnt work either (anymore, 1.0.1), what left for a enterprising wing commander? :mad:

 

Someone says "you have problem but I do this and happy" pretends that "I am better pilot with success" even though you both experience this wingman bug. No one admits they have problems. We are all the best pilots. :megalol:

 

Wingman stop bug is a problem, yes. It is pretended not to exist like this :music_whistling: because if you complain then you are mean complainer person that no one likes and you hate Eagle Dynamics, babies, and kittens. All I can say is yes, bug is there and it is bad, but you can still complete missions around it. Never use the "stop" feature for the wingman, either on a moving task like recon or attack or otherwise in formation.

 

In formation, "Wingman 2, attack tank." He flies out and shoots tank. He says "done" and flies back to formation. No stop bug.