KA- 52 Alligator

[liotczik]

I was wondering the same thing! Single seaters are OK but what happens if you are the co-pilot/gunner of a two-seater and AI has to actually fly the plane using the realistic flight model? Would it (the AI) be any good?

 

 

It was already done reasonably well in 'Gunship!' - unfortunately it was one of the only 3 good features in that sim(?). The other two were planeset (2x Apache, Havoc, Tigre) and visual representation of NVG/FLIR.

 

While in CP/G seat, player didn't have had any control over a helo. Instead he could supply AI pilot with commands like go up, strafe left, fly to waypoint no.#, fly slower/faster, fly NOE and so on. At least that element worked well and actually I liked it more, than how it is done in Longbow 2 or Enemy Engaged.

 

I'm happy with Ka-50 as it is, with all it's shortcomings. I've flown Ka-52 in 'Enemy Engaged' and now forgotten 'Ka-52 Team Alligator'. The experience, apart from simulation fidelity and eyecandy, wasn't that much different, from what I have in Black Shark.

 

My reasoning is, why make a whole new module for a very similar airframe? There are many Russian helicopters, that are more different from Ka-50 and would be a better choice, Hind (+ Afghanistan campaign, even current conflict could be modelled) being the first on the list. However, Ka-52 could be an interesting topic for modders, although certainly on a different level of fidelity, with a healthy amount of "educated guessing".

Edited February 5, 2010 by liotczik

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Is this the same Frazer who did the Blackshark demo on you tube? Frazer VFAT 2009 DCS: Black Shark Demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66LeS9qcKi0. You know your somewhat of a celebrity in the DCS world don't you. Man I sure would like an oppurtunity to fly with you sometime. What server do you fly on?

[funkee]

Another russian helo? No thx, one is enough.

[element1108]

^^^ not a good attitude in my opinion.

[Boberro]

He took drugs so he doesn't know what he is talking about :D

[element1108]

Edit

[element1108]

Another russian helo? No thx, one is enough.

 

I respectfully disagree. I don't want to continue to ask why no 52, but I'll take whatever dcs decides to produce. It's not about what I want, but I'll take what I can get.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

It's not about what I want, but I'll take what I can get.

 

Wow. You sure are easy going. Sure its about what you want. Your a customer. I trade money for what I want or need thats how the economy works. Besides they need to know what we want to better market thier product. I think were getting off topic here anyway. And yes I understand people get tired of hearing why not this or that. However I feel this post is a bit different. Reason being is this. In my mind I am not so much asking for a new aircraft as the other half of what I feel should be a set. To me Ka-50's and Ka-52's were meant to fly together as a set. That was the whole reason for the Ka-52 to even exist is to work in tangent with the Blackshark. I would like to hear your veiwpoints on this.

[sobek]

However I feel this post is a bit different.

 

Well, i hope this sounds as little condescending as i mean it to be, but you might not be around long enough to have seen all those threads about the Ka-52.

 

While i'm sure that ED take whishes of their civilian customers into account, it's not like x people have to want this plane, then we'll get it. As i understood, EDs current business plan calls for a military customer to request a simulator, which is then in turn developed for the civilian side as well (if the military is cool with that). Our whishes might influence ED a little on whom they approach about building a simulator, but i guess ED have to be opportunistic and take what contracts they can get.

[Shaman]

I just want to know how to enable it as AI and script it into a scenario - the official way :/

[Bucic]

it's not like x people have to want this plane, then we'll get it.

Anyone reading the forums for a week or so should figure it out already:doh: I thank God for What kind of aircraft do you wan't to see next? thread because frankly I'm really fed up with similar requests outside it.

 

"Would you fly E-War aircrafts?". Who cares?! Here's Chit-Chat section.

[mdee]

It won't happen pretty fast.

 

Flaming cliffs 2 is next, then A-10C. Both of these take up this year.

 

After that the future's unknown.

 

To obtain information on threats, use the target detection sight from the ka-50 pilot, the eyeball. It's development over millions of years has resulting in an unrivalled display resolution of the target area :lol:

 

By the time you see AA battery or a MANPAD you are usually dead if flying K50. K50 helicopters (and other similar ones) are never sent for a mission if there is any serious AA threat present, because they are not equipped to fight this kind of a threat. That kind of stuff only happens in games.

[isoul]

Exactly! Only in games you can pit the Ka-50, as is now, against a serious army. Remember? It fought militants in Chechenya... they didn't have serious SAMS like the Tor M-1 or serious AAA like M-163. If it had all the modern equipment it would probably be used in South Osetia too. Actually attack helicopters can deal with AAA and SAMS and usually its part of the helicopter and anti-aircraft crews training process...

 

Now, I don't know many helicopters similar to Ka-50. Like the Mi-24, Ka-50 doesn't actually have an exact western counterpart to be compared with. Besides that Ka-50 has a very unique history/background which someone should know before tag it "insufficient" to deal with X threat.

 

... K50 helicopters (and other similar ones) are never sent for a mission if there is any serious AA threat present, because they are not equipped to fight this kind of a threat. That kind of stuff only happens in games.

Edited February 6, 2010 by isoul

[element1108]

It's not about what I want, but I'll take what I can get.

 

Wow. You sure are easy going. Sure its about what you want. Your a customer. I trade money for what I want or need thats how the economy works. Besides they need to know what we want to better market thier product. I think were getting off topic here anyway. And yes I understand people get tired of hearing why not this or that. However I feel this post is a bit different. Reason being is this. In my mind I am not so much asking for a new aircraft as the other half of what I feel should be a set. To me Ka-50's and Ka-52's were meant to fly together as a set. That was the whole reason for the Ka-52 to even exist is to work in tangent with the Blackshark. I would like to hear your veiwpoints on this.

 

well when it comes to sims I am pretty easy going. I don't like ww1 aviaion so I won't buy rise of flight, but I love helo's, fighters and strike aircraft and I really don't have a preference as long as it's an accurate representation of x aircraft.

 

I understand the 50 and 52 would make a great match, but I've been here a long time and have read enough times why the 52 won't happen unless by some miracle all that classified info is released to dcs and the rights to publish a consumer product.

 

The ka50 isn't a super popular aircraft, dcs would have probably made more money had they done longbow, but it would have compromised their fidelity model.

 

There are obvious compromises we should consider to get high fidelity flight models. Our favorite modern day aircraft for one.

 

No disrespect, I understand your points.

[GGTharos]

Wow. You sure are easy going. Sure its about what you want. Your a customer. I trade money for what I want or need thats how the economy works.

 

Yes, and if you trade a few million for a Ka-52 sim, I'm sure you'll get it, too.

Until you can make that sort of trade, you're a customer ... as in you trade money for what is produced. You have the right to demand anything you like, but you have no right to have your demand met just for the asking :)

 

Besides they need to know what we want to better market thier product. I think were getting off topic here anyway. And yes I understand people get tired of hearing why not this or that. However I feel this post is a bit different.

It isn't.

 

Reason being is this. In my mind I am not so much asking for a new aircraft as the other half of what I feel should be a set. To me Ka-50's and Ka-52's were meant to fly together as a set. That was the whole reason for the Ka-52 to even exist is to work in tangent with the Blackshark. I would like to hear your veiwpoints on this.

Ka-52 was never produced to function in this role. Yes, it was envisioned to take this role on originally, but the Ka-52 as actually, factually produced is a full-out replacement for the Ka-50. The Ka-50 is over and done with.

Further, data on the Ka-52 is currently unavailable in its entirety, AFAIK, and without this sort of data ED will not make a simulation of the Ka-52 no matter how much you want them to. Unless you have the aforementioned few mil lying about and you're able to swing a contract with Kamov and Russian Air Force for all this.

Currently ED has other contracts - you know, paying contracts, customers that pay more than you (I know, it hurts, but that's how the economy works, right? Don't worry, it sucks for me too - my fave plane isn't being modeled next) have asked for specific aircraft.

 

Sorry to be blunt, but that's pretty much all there is to it.

[isoul]

...To me Ka-50's and Ka-52's were meant to fly together as a set. That was the whole reason for the Ka-52 to even exist is to work in tangent with the Blackshark. I would like to hear your veiwpoints on this.

 

Actually this was the idea of how Ka-50 units would operate! The idea is still considered awesome in a theoritical level! Still in practise, given the funding that Russia dedicate to its Army till today, problems in production line, the geo-political situation and many other reasons of lesser significance, this idea seems illussionary, unless there are dramatic changes.

Actually the Ka-50 was to be complemented by the Ka-52, not the reverse. The Ka-52 is technologically more advanced than Ka-50 and can operate on its own, day or night, without any problems. The only problem would be is that Ka-52 isn't a low-cost unit like Ka-50 is BUT given the limited funding its better to have 10 Ka-52 rather than 5 Ka-52 coordinating 15 Ka-50(the numbers are fictional).

 

...Ka-52 was never produced to function in this role. Yes, it was envisioned to take this role on originally, but the Ka-52 as actually, factually produced is a full-out replacement for the Ka-50. The Ka-50 is over and done with.

 

As for now, according to Russia's Air Force chief, Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin, deliveries of the first 12 Ka-52 Hokum-Bs to the Russian Air Force must have started in 2009(RIA Novosti article). I think that I 've red somewhere that 2 have been already delivered to Russian Army. According to other official, the manufacturers plan is that 30 Alligators will be delivered by 2012. None ever said, as GGTharos posted earlier, that this number is ordered to supplement the existing Ka-50.This probably means that Ka-52 seem to go into production without close dependency to the Ka-50 numbers currently in service. So, we can expect that Ka-52 will be operating alone in many occassions, especially in missions were Ka-50 isn't properly equipped for.

 

Still there is no official word, as far as I am aware of, that Ka-50 will fall into disuse or that Ka-52 will replace it. On the contrary, in late 2004 Russian official denied that in press. According to same source's(RIA Novosti news agency article here) info back in 2007, Russia's Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister(at that time), Sergei Ivanov, said that Ka-50s is included(!) in 2008 state's defence order and that Russia will buy another 12 until 2015. This is a quite small number but it would help not closing-down the Ka-50 production line. No much further info is available since Russian keeps numbers and details a secret.

 

What I get from all this is that in today's world much are changing when it comes to military matters that affects the equipment which has been built and is being developed. More or less the equipment is changing according to what armies need and what nations have to spend. We may see new needs to rise or old ones to be reconsidered/redesigned. Its almost a year since US President decided to halt the more-than-20-year-old "F-22 Raptor progmam" with the comment "I'm grateful that the Senate just voted against an additional $1.75bn to buy F-22 fighter jets that military experts and members of both parties say we do not need", this alone should say something.

 

...Currently ED has other contracts - you know, paying contracts, customers that pay more than you (I know, it hurts, but that's how the economy works, right? Don't worry, it sucks for me too - my fave plane isn't being modeled next) have asked for specific aircraft.

 

 

The fact is, as GGTharos mentioned, that the next module is much depend on what the next ED military contract will be and which one will be approved to "leak" to the commercial market. This contract may differ largely from what we are asking in here. After all, the army paid for much of the DCS we have in our computers today... let it do its job so we can benefit once more!

Edited February 9, 2010 by isoul