General comparsion of 120C and ER-27 in 2 sims

[A.S]

www.as-private.com/DiffStuff/Aim120CvsAA10-AlamoC-inAF-DEMO.vhs.txt.acmi

 

..just for the sake of it....i made a AIM 120C vs AA10 Alamo C (R-27ER) demo tacview

in Falcon AF.

Mind you this is just a demo ....giving you a short comparison with lockon tacviews in same or similar situations. You are free to compare every detail you might think of importance....have fun

 

...2nd round i die puropsoly btw..... :D

 

edit: here another comparsion

in both cases 120Cs are fired at 15kft alt, eta 560 kts groundspeed.....once in AF, once in LO.... as soon as i hit Rmax in DLZ

remarkable in both case is the range difference at Rmax, the speed characteristics of the 120Cs (LO and AF) ... tragectory "behaviour", aswell fusing ....

 

http://www.as-private.com/DiffStuff/...ssile-TEST.rar

[RedTiger]

For those of us without the benefit of tac view or the time to use it, can you explain the major differences? I'm interested. :)

[A.S]

its selfexplantory

 

http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-en.php

 

if you have no time....its bad...cuz it would take me aswell time to write it and for you to read it :smilewink:

[Frostie]

I noticed that no matter what sim you play AI pilots will always suck. ;)

 

But at least the lockon MiG-25 pilot had the sense to dive and crank rather than AF's crazy crank and climb method.

 

I also noticed that the 120 in AF has a nice loft trajectory while the 27ER didn't have any and only managed to travel 30km before it crashed into the sea. :)

[A.S]

I noticed that no matter what sim you play AI pilots will always suck. ;)

 

But at least the lockon MiG-25 pilot had the sense to dive and crank rather than AF's crazy crank and climb method.

 

I also noticed that the 120 in AF has a nice loft trajectory while the 27ER didn't have any and only managed to travel 30km before it crashed into the sea. :)

 

The AI acts never the same and was set on rookie not ACE, and furthermore not topic of the comparsion.

 

And the ER does have (you see it in another shot) but the reason why it crashed into the water, was my 120 went pitbull and forced AI to crank out of his own lock (..timings vs semi-actives ...) ..

besides the missiles do have also "ground clutter", but if you look closly, the su-27 doesnt loose lock, till he breaks it.....

There many more things to dig and to see in those "clips". Well, if you understand what you looking for first place of course.

 

FROSTIE !! this was really not blowmac s### and AF rocks comparsion, this was just a comparsion to show how "they" modeled missiles. YOU know, all that what they are talking about in 2.0 and so on?

Why each time you do good in this community you get an arrogant, ignorant and most non-intelligent feedback back? pfff

Edited February 11, 2010 by A.S

[Frostie]

You are free to compare every detail you might think of importance....have fun

Im sorry if AF doesn't rock my world and AI pilots suck.

This was my observation of the tacviews, if you don't like opinions don't ask for them, simple. Im quite happy to be corrected but with a bit less arrogance from yourself next time please. ;)

[RedTiger]

Why each time you do good in this community you get an arrogant, ignorant and most non-intelligent feedback back? pfff

 

This is a small part why I asked for a synopsis. Rather than leaving it up to people to go off on tangents. Not only are these the LO boards, but there's a very heavy preference for head-to-head multiplayer...and you know how that goes. ;) Falcon already has 2 strikes against it. Tell us what you've determined. A simple "F4 missles do this, LO missles do that" would have sufficed. Never leave leading the dicussion up to the peanut gallery. :P

 

For me, the "time" is installing tac view. I don't even have Lock On installed at the moment, so no tac view either. I've never played OF, only FF and AF. My take-away was that R-27s were similar to LO in ability to defeat, but AMRAAMs and R-77s were way, way, WAY tougher due to the way AI MiG-29S will actually use TWS.

Edited February 12, 2010 by RedTiger

[A.S]

AF AI pilots suck.

;)

 

then let me correct you kind.

 

YOU ARE VERY WRONG !!! so much, that you dont even know what you talking about. This is a kind serious honest FACT from me to you.

AF AI is by ALL MEANS way superior then LOs ..but again...this was not topic.

I just posted this comparsion chance for all those of you, who never look further out from their beloved own "cages", but what doesnt suprise me, that instead of thinking about it, many turn even THIS to a "F-15 vs Su-27 whining" :D (just with AF vs LO) post.

 

Me out.

[Frostie]

If you wind yourself back down for a second AS you'll notice that I mentioned the Aim-120 in AF has a nice loft trajectory which isn't present in Lockon, and was curious as to why the ER didn't have this in the same sim.

 

I also mentioned that the AI sucks in all Sims, why doesn't it surprise me that you leap to the defensive and claim AF is all superior.

 

By comparing the two 120 shots on MiG-25's I would say that the Lockon AI pilot took a much better evasion route than the one in AF so was ultimately going to stand more chance of evading. This doesn't mean that im saying either is better than the other like your doing.

What's the problem?

[A.S]

Well nothing then....

 

I think best would be, if you try it for yourself....and compare yourself...maybe that gives you ideas ..dunno.

 

PS1: i had to set the AF AI on "dumb-dummy", cuz purpose was to show the missiles without being fought by AI and screwing up the demo.

PS2: i gave the hint in first post (remarkable in both case is the range difference at Rmax, the speed characteristics of the 120Cs (LO and AF) ... tragectory "behaviour", aswell fusing ....)

[RedTiger]

then let me correct you kind.

 

YOU ARE VERY WRONG !!!

 

:yawn: Good luck with arguing that around here. Lots of opinions about AI from people who apparently spend all their time playing flight sims against humans. Does their AI-playing experience include anything besides AI lemming rushes?

 

You can't get challenge from AI with the same method you'd try with a human player, nor will you get the same type of challenge. If you're comparing 1 vs. 1 gunzo deathmatch to be a challenge with the AI, you're doing it wrong. Its about unit density and creative unit placement, and creative use of triggers if you have that capability. Its a completely different ball game.

 

If the social element and competition is part of the challenge, knowing you beat "someone" who has a name and face, AI can't help you there. Not everyone cares about that, though.

Edited February 12, 2010 by RedTiger

[A.S]

:yawn: Good luck with arguing that around here. Lots of opinions about AI from people who apparently spend all their time playing flight sims against humans. Does their AI-playing experience include anything besides AI lemming rushes?

 

You can't get challenge from AI with the same method you'd try with a human player, nor will you get the same type of challenge. If you're comparing 1 vs. 1 gunzo deathmatch to be a challenge with the AI, you're doing it wrong. Its about unit density and creative unit placement, and creative use of triggers if you have that capability. Its a completely different ball game.

 

If the social element and competition is part of the challenge, knowing you beat "someone" who has a name and face, AI can't help you there. Not everyone cares about that, though.

 

Talking about 1v1 guns. You know who you are talking with? :D

No, the AI is really better by all means in AF. Even in gunso, but of course, trashing AI in gunso is boring. I doubt that you can trash even the Mig-29 on Ace in AF ...not to mention the EF2000...but thats another topic.

As far for the campaigns...the AI operate amazingly smart and provide a really excellent battlefield expirience. But i cant explain you that, or i cant try to convince you from that....you have to feel it by yourself.

Im an old lockon guy.....but anyone who came over to to AF, may it be for fun, and saw the depth and substance of it....was like "oh boy...no wonder, they lol at Lockon ers, this amazing...or ..each time i play this i discover more things.....or..crazy how they made the AI ..... << those are comments from old lockon fellows.

[RedTiger]

Talking about 1v1 guns. You know who you are talking with? :D

No, the AI is really better by all means in AF. Even in gunso, but of course, trashing AI in gunso is boring. I doubt that you can trash even the Mig-29 on Ace in AF ...not to mention the EF2000...but thats another topic.

 

I sincerely hope that wasn't an attempt at trash talking me, and that maybe you intended something else. Don't attack someone who's on your side. And no, I don't know who you are, and if you're trying to insult I probably won't care. Yet another gunzo tournament winner or perhaps another authority on virtual ACM/BFM, right? :P

 

 

If I misunderstand, then I apologize. And I agree, the individual AI is better in Falcon. The campaign as a simulation of a battlefield...we can agree to disagree. ;)

Edited February 13, 2010 by RedTiger

[A.S]

Have you EVER flown Falcon AF?

 

No trash ... just responding your "strange" post.

(Dont try to be a smart###, if you dont know what you speaking about. This post was only made as "general mission" comparsion, and i think we should stick to topic)

Edited February 13, 2010 by A.S

[Kuky]

I think AS is right... AF and OF are better in sim department... there is more depth then lockon... how I know? because few weeks ago I gave OF 4.7 a chance (before that I installed AF and yes I could not beat a MiG-29 in dogfight at all!). The AI does seems smarter as they do not just do exact same thing every time (for example head on... when fired the AI in Lockon will almost always beam/evade missiles to the left and dive... in OF/Af they do not do that every time). LockOn is defeinitely better in multiplayer for PvP... but for also for me flight model in OF is now not that bad at all.

 

It might as well be I find OF much better now then before because I got those Cougar MFD's working with monitors behind them so I can display MFD's from the game... but still I think now OF is better si then LockOn.. it just lacks in graphics, but even that will very likely change soon.

[RedTiger]

A.S., I have a feeling there's a communication problem here.

 

You boasted about flight sim AI on the LOMAC forum. Forget Falcon for a second. "Artificial Intelligence" is a dirty word around here. Boasting about it here is like boasting about how awesome your Honda Goldwing motorcycle is on a Harley-Davidson forum. This is just my observation

 

Like I said..."good luck with that". I didn't say that I disagree with you. You may ignore my rant about AI if you want, it was off-topic, but I still stand by what I said.

 

Talking about 1v1 guns. You know who you are talking with? :D

No, the AI is really better by all means in AF. Even in gunso, but of course, trashing AI in gunso is boring. I doubt that you can trash even the Mig-29 on Ace in AF ...not to mention the EF2000...but thats another topic.

 

^^^^^

This could be interpreted as "Hey RedTiger, you probably couldn't beat the MiG-29 or EF2000 in AF!" I have no idea why you'd just randomly trash talk, so maybe you meant "I doubt anyone could just easily beat the MiG and EF AI in those sims". I agree, the MiG-29, EF2000 and F-22 are certainly harder to best than anything LOMAC has to offer.

 

Bro, I own F4AF, and played it plenty. I also played RedViper/FF. The only reason why I didn't play OF is because I couldn't get the damn thing to stop crashing.

 

As for the dogfight AI in AF...once you realize that it will always pull lead, all day long, total G for brains, instead of just easing off the stick and going lag pursuit to get in the saddle, you can exploit that 100% of the time. If you don't, then its more fair. The MiG-29, EF, and Raptor can be difficult. For the record, I've beat them before fair and square on Ace. I'd be lying if I said I "trashed" them though except for the times that I got lucky. Most of my time on Falcon was spent dogfighting these particular planes. Hours and hours, not just fighting but also watching the ACMI.

Edited February 13, 2010 by RedTiger

[A.S]

Well, then all should be clear here....

 

What you think about the missiles ?

[RedTiger]

My take-away was that R-27s were similar to LO in ability to defeat, but AMRAAMs and R-77s were way, way, WAY tougher due to the way AI MiG-29S will actually use TWS.

 

I'm quoting myself from earlier in the thread. The R-27 wasn't a huge threat because of the fact that it is SARH - notch = lost lock = missile goes ballistic. Couple this with the fact that you have Aim-120s, and in a sterile test environment you have a high success rate. In the campaign, success at anything was NEVER assured. The first day is a killer.

 

The R-77? Death incarnate if the launching aircraft had ECM. The MiG-29S AI made good use of their ECM and, realistically or not, had TWS capability. And boy did they ever use it. I'd think I would have the first shot and then SURPRISE! R-77 goes active...the bastards had me bugged the whole time. I could never assure success unless I was *very sneaky* - flying low, keeping them on the beam, then coming back at them from the side or behind outside of their radar's scanning ability trying to use AWACS to locate them. I could never do this 100% of the time. This tactic would be pointless in the campaign.

[A.S]

Now this is a more valueable feedback.

But actually im really only refering to the characteristics, balistics, algorythms, speed-cuvres...chaff resistance....look-down characteristiscs...etc etc ...such things.

You know many (who not) complains about lockon missiles...the russian dont like their ERs, the US guys dont like their 120ties ...for good reason.

My post was actually just made to open that topic....HOW OTHER SIMS have solved that...what we (lockon) can learn from this? .....2.0 and more future is to come.

My idea was to inspire a creative discussion.

[DarkWanderer]

Well, actually... Did you presented the speed curves to talk about?.. ;)

Personally, I have some pretenses to Lock On missile modelling, like:

- overestimated ground clutter affection (that means, the beam maneuver is too effective)

- direct flying (no missile AoA at all)

- undermodelled AIM-120C (though I fly MiG-29C, a strong enemy is always more interesting).

But there's not much to discuss, IMHO. Either ED fixes that, either they don't.

In FC 2.0 the problem with ET seekers seems to be addressed, but by expence of adding another trouble - flare ineffectiveness when the heat-seeker is launched in-front. In addition, some fusing problems are obviously also looked through (Chizh gathered data on missile fusing radius a while ago) So, anyways, it worth looking on the update first.

[Kuky]

Lockon has such bad proximity fuse which makes missiles past you as you do that magic last pull... many times the missile passes right bellow you within few meters and it doesn't do anything... I am very certain in real life getting this close to the target and missile would detonate at least doing some damage

[A.S]

Well, actually... Did you presented the speed curves to talk about?.. ;)

 

No i havent. This is free for discussion. Let see how creative this post moves along.

PS: we did those curves waaay back in my RvE days.....

[Vekkinho]

AFAIK, OF 4.7 is most advanced and realistic BVR you can get for desk flight simulator. Missiles presented are very close to their real life models in terms of range,speed, G and proxy fuse footprint. However getting into dogfights is something I tend to avoid with OF4.7. F-16Blk30 is a poor match for a MiG-29A as the later always seems to win by doing more °/s. But that's only 'cause I suck with my way of handling it. Fulcrums simply rule when low and slow (<M0,6) and if I keep my speed beyond it makes tighter turns. Can't say if this is true IRL, perhaps some PoAF folks may shed some light on it, but I can say that avoiding dogfights in OF is a must. Same as in RL! So at least this tactic is just as IRL.

[borchi_2b]

kuky, you can fly this "magic" ditch maneuver in diffrent ways, and very often i ditch the missilesat distances around 25m, which means that no fuse would detonate at all.

 

there is no magic to such maneuvers at all.

although in reallife, pilots would perform such manuevers only as last chance, before they die.

 

to the detonation of such a missile in reallife. it might detonate, but it does not mean that it will do any damage to the plane. it depends on angles and vectors. imagine a missle head on and ditched, then the missile passes below the plane, detonates, but the debrie has some area it will be blown too.

do to the huge vectors of the plane and the missile, it is very likely that the debrie will just pass the plane in the rear and do nothing

[Kuky]

naaa... reason a missile in lockon would pass 25m bellow the aircraft (if the missile has enough energy) is because of poor modeling in tracking in Lockon... it should not be that bad... online it gets worse because of lack of data between PC's. If I was making software for the tracking and say test would reveal missile would "lag" like this, it would be altered to go a bit ahead... I can't say this is how it works but surely I do not believe missile with good energy would ever pass like that. The algorithm would also have to be able such that as the proximity to impact point decreases and the moment it stops decreasing (point of closest proximity) the algorithm would have to written such that at that point the warhead would detonate...