I'm new, where do I start :)

[schkorpio]

Hi Everyone,

 

I’ve recently bought DCS Black Shark as I’ve always wanted to pilot a chopper. I’ve never played a simulator before but I’m impressed the detail of this thing, and have decided I want to go the whole way, but of course have little idea where to start.

 

 

So far I’ve gathered, I need to buy a JoyStick/Throttle/Rudder pedals, Head tracking unit, multiple monitors, and a desk or some kind of mount for the joystick and throttle.

 

 

I was hoping that the experts here would be able to point me in the right direction. I’d like to get the right set up – while my budget isn’t infinite I’d like to make sure I can play the game as effectively as possible.

Can you guys recommend:

 

 

JOYSTICK/THROTTLE

Whats the best Joystick / throttle combo for heli sims – and is there a tutorial on how to modify the joystick – I’ve heard some people talk about doing something to the springs ?

Is the force feed back a good idea on the Logitech joystick? Does it aid in flying, or does it just rumble like a console controller?

 

RUDDERS PEDALS

Any preferences? They all seem fairly similar

HEAD TRACKING UNIT

I’ve seen a free program called CACHYA used to look around the cockpit – any one had good results with this? Or should I invest in a trackIR 5

 

MULTIPLE MONITORS

What options do I have for a 3 monitor setup? Do I need multiple video cards in pc? or is the matrox go triple head a better way to go? Or just a really big screen?

 

 

COCKPIT STYLE DESK / JOYSTICK MOUNTS

I’d like to get the ergonomics here right – Is there a product that will allow me to point the joystick between my legs like in real heli? I’ve seen the FX cockpit desk, which is very well priced(around $100 usd), but because I’m in Australia the shipping costs are a ridiculous ($900 usd) which is pretty much puts it out of the question – so I’m hoping there is a mount of some kind I can attach to my chair or desk – or some kind of stand?

 

I appreciate the help, and hopefully I’ll be in the skies with you soon (well ,after I learn how to stay in the air !)

 

Schkorpio

[MTFDarkEagle]

hi! and welcome to your new addiction!

 

Well, I can only answer your questions regarding the joystick (+throttle), pedals and headtracking unit: Joystick: I use the Saitek X52, but it's begining to die lol :P So I will need a replacement. However, the X52 (when it's new :P) works BRILLIANTLY in the BS (for me anyway). So I'm buying a new joy in the coming time, but I'm not sure which one: Saitek X65F or Thrustmaster Warthog. The Saitek has force sensing (which means the stick doesn't move, but "detects" how much force you apply to the stick). And I'm not sure if that's a good thing in a chopper. I dont know alot from the Warthog, but it should be in the same range as the Thrustmaster Cougar. So that's a good thing. I'll wait untill I get more info about the warthog before I make a decision. As for FFB: I'm told it helps a lot in BS... (:P)

 

Rudder pedals: If your going all the way: Go for it. I also have the Logitech G25 steering wheel, and I use the throttle and brake pedal for the rudder and the clutch pedal for the wheel brakes. But if you want, you can get some serious pedals. From what I've read: get the Saitek pedals.

 

Head tracking: INVEST IN THE TRACKIR!!!! Its BRILLIANT!!! I have the trackir4 here, and in the beginning its hopeless, and I thought I bought rubbish. But once you get used to it, you cant do without it ;)

 

This is all the information I can give you and I hope this helps

Good luck :)

 

Greetz

[coolts]

A lot depends on preference when it comes to particular flavours of joysticks / pedals. You will hear all sorts of “get this” and “don’t get that”. it’s all very subjective to your preference and your wallet. I went from a saitek evo àevo force à hotas cougar and there are strengths / weaknesses with them all but am happy

 

From my experience, the things that made the most difference to me were (in descending order)

 

Track IR – OMG that really adds to the experience. I would never go back and would rather play minesweeper than a flightsim without trackir now

Proper HOTAS – Total control. Sing the top gun theme tune. Say no more:pilotfly:

Rudder pedals – a subtle but immensely immersive addition. I had a twist stick rudder for yonks but the difference is simple. More control. More accuracy. More kills (and better landings). As 'dark eagle' has done, i repurposed my G25 racing pedals and they work fine.

Monitors – no need for fancy multiple monitor setups. They are fiddly to set up in BS and expensive. Mind you, if you have a spare LCD lying around, the ABRIS / SHKVAL works nicely on it and can increase your situational awareness. a bit.

Desk – Meh. a desk is a desk unless you want to go down the whole pit building route. Good luck with your ‘significant other’ in that department

Edited February 25, 2010 by coolts

[EtherealN]

On the TrackIR stuff - it's an amazing piece of kit, but yes - Cachya is an alternative if you have a webcam and don't mind tinkering a bit. Do note however that you'll be limited to the webcam's lower refresh rate, but several people have given it good reviews. You'll also be more sensitive to lighting conditions.

[coolts]

this months "pc pilot" mag has a favourable review of a proper trackir alternative. about £30-£40 cheaper. cant remember the name off the top of my head.

[Booger]

TrackIR - For sure. Track Clip Pro + TrackIR 5

HOTAS - I too use Saitek & it would really take an impressive piece of equipment (as in realism) to pull me away from the company. X-52 for sure. Don't bother with the new X-65 IMHO. It's too "peter pan" for the cost. X-52 works perfectly.

PEDALS - I use CH & haven't used anything else. They've held up well over time for me personally, so I can't complain.

Multi-moniter - It is absolutely NOT a must. If you can swing it, by all means go for it, but don't get wrapped around the axle over it.

Desk - Pft. Stack phone books, who gives a rip? All that matters is if you're able to play the game.

[Fahhh]

Multi monitor: There is an easier way to setup multi-monitor configurations with one video card today - ATI's Eyefinity. I don't know however how well does this work with BS.

 

TrackIR: I'm also using an alternative to TrackIR - Freetrack 2.3, built with a customized webcam. Works quite well actually, though setting it up for 6DoF is a bit too much pain for me, and I've left the settings for moving along the x, y and z axis

 

Pedals: As for Pedals, I use the ones from an old gembird wheel, and they work fairly well.

 

Hotas: I don't have a HOTAS system, but i built one using one Saitek Evo-FF joystick and another cheaper Saitek. It requires some modifications, but works nicely.

 

All in all, as my finances were limited I had gone for the cheaper options and still have a good working setup.

[bfeld]

Hi there,

 

TrackIR: TrackIR 4 here, for me, it was the biggest improvement concerning immersion and comfort in the pit.

 

HOTAS: I had a Saitek X52 pro and I really liked it. Unfortunatelly, there was a little problem with the stick, so I had to send it back. I was thinking about buying another HOTAS in case I don't get a new one but the money. I was researching a little, but finally ordered a new X52 pro, since it's a good cost/performance ratio.

 

Rudder pedals: Saitek pedals, I don't know the others, just ordered them with the second stick. I think they're great.

 

Multi-Monitor: Don't have much experience with that. I tried a second screen for ABRIS and Shkval yesterday, it was nice, but somehow felt unrealistic, since it is not in it's usual place between gauges and switches.

 

I think it's not enjoyable without head tracking and HOTAS, so at least these should be bought.

 

Bye, bfeld

[walker450]

Lots of good input on this thread!

 

Few things to remember:

If you plan on going to a more realistic cyclic position between your legs in the future, I recommend the Saitek pedals. They are farther apart so your legs aren't squeezed too close to the stick...

 

A trackir will postpone the need for extra monitors. With it you will be able to quickly, easily, and naturally lean forward and down in the cockpit and get a good look at the Shkval and Abris screens.

 

As far as joysticks go, you have many choices. I highly recommend modding and experimenting with a cheaper joystick to achieve trim-free flight. I am the one who made the "Joystick Sping Removal and Modding" post. It is in the game controller section.

 

Rudder pedals are also very important. This is no Cessna 152... This helo requires a lot of footwork, enough said. :)

 

And finally, a gamepad is great to have, but second to last on my list. See my post about the Belkin n25te in the game controllers section. This is something I can't imagine doing without now- it's amazing!

 

And the last thing is multiple monitors....

 

 

 

 

.

[walker450]

OP, could you give us a description of your current setup? Do you even have a joystick at all? What are your computer specs? This will help everyone in recommending somethj. That works best for you.

 

I also created a signature for myself that has links to some of my threads. Hopefully they help you in your decisions. :)

[TenBlade]

As you said, you want to go the whole way, then immerse yourself with a tripple wide screen setup, I use TrippleHead2Go by the way, AND use TrackIR. Even though you may have all vital buttons programmed to your stick or use the keyboard, the feel of having free head movement inside the cockpit is phenomenal! Of course most vital things in game are happening on right in front of me on my center screen. But the sensation of a wide field of view makes it a lot better for me.

Saitek rudder pedals are sturdy, I´d recommend them.

 

Welcome to the interesting world of Black Shark!

 

Crewe

[schkorpio]

wow, thats a lot of responses - thanks very much gents :) some really good information so far!

 

 

Currently I've got a pc with:

AMD quad core 2.4ghz (it was cheap :P)

9800GT

SLI mobo (but only 1 card currently)

4gb RAM

19" widescreen lcd

keyboard and mouse

[walker450]

Your current setup is much like what I started with.

 

I recommend buying a joystick and trackir first.

 

If you have the money, just go right for the X-52. Otherwise just buy one with lots of buttons and a twist function for the rudder.

 

So here is my list, the top being the most important IMHO.

 

1. Joystick or HOTAS
   
2. Track IR
   
3. Gamepad
   
4. Rudder Pedals
   
5. Upgrade Computer (CPU, RAM, GPU)
   
6. Multiple Monitors
   

 

Most importantly, just have fun! :)

[Speed]

Um I would think that an X52 would be the MINIMUM. I can't begin to imagine trying to fly this thing without a HOTAS, and the X52 is the cheapest one that I know of, and it's pretty decent to boot.

 

Track IR is the next most important thing... personally, I hate the track clip pro, and I just use the regular track clip... seems like I get more range of motion out of it anyway.

 

Because the X52 has a rudder twist, rudder pedals are a bit more optional, but definately helpful.

[EtherealN]

Um I would think that an X52 would be the MINIMUM. I can't begin to imagine trying to fly this thing without a HOTAS

 

You're spoiled. :P The only thing the HOTAS gets you is less need for using the keyboard. Flying itself is no problem at all. (I personally use a Cyborg Evo for the ability to make the stick properly fit my hands.)

 

The key in selection of stick is just quality - you need it to be precise if you want to fly precise, and I'd say a pedal set is a lot more important than a HOTAS. I'd even venture that it's more important than TrackIR. You can build SA through controlling view with the mouse in your left hand anyhow - I spent something like 7 years of IL-2 dogfighting with that method. ;)

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Walker450 I noticed you listed a gamepad in your list. What do you use that for? Is that your primary or secondary input device? For instance do you use that for piloting or other functions coupled with a flight stick? I have not tried it but to me it seems it would be VERY difficult to pilot the Helo with a gamepad.

[EtherealN]

Not quite as difficult as one might think, but still not something that I myself would want to do.

 

But a PC-compatible gamepad is an awesome piece of kit to disassemble and mount into a box connected to your customized collective lever, since you can then move more controls to the collective without having to script stuff for specialized cirquit boards and USB controllers. It's all done already - you just set the commands and axes as usual. :)

 

Obviously, I don't know if that's what Walker meant for it.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Schkorpio here is my opinion

 

1. Make sure your stick has forcefeedback. It is difficult to get the helo into hover without it. Also note force feedback is not a rumble like on a console controller. A force feedback will actually give more or less resistance as you try to move the stick. I personally use a Microsoft Force Feedback 2.

 

2. Track IR is great. There is Cachya and Freetrack as alternatives.

 

3. You don't NEED pedals. But twisting the joystick can mess with you when your trying to do precision piloting.

 

4. Mutliple Monitors I'm sure are immersive. However, that is pretty expensive when you mostly use the centeral monitor. I would say get a large touchscreen where u can touch buttons and flip switches without a mouse. Also there is a company called IZ3D that sells 3d monitors wich would make playing BlackShark like watching a 3D full color movie (Avatar, Up, Monsters VS Aliens for example). All you need for that is any graphics card with dual outputs. The monitor will use both of them. I suggest you go see a 3D movie to get free plastic frame glasses (IZ3D does not use shutter glasses, it uses ploarized ones, same effect different technology). Me personally I am waiting for a 3D Touch screen. For now its only one or the the other.

 

5. Also consider a voice control program. This litterly lets you make your own voice commands to control the helo. With this you would not even need to touch the keyboard. You can use any phrase or word you want for any action you want. There are several choices and they are all about 20 dollars. They have free ones also but there kinda hit or miss. For my money Say2Play is the best choice. I hope that helps.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

EtherealN do you fly in a squadron just out of curiosity? Also thats a great Idea for a collective. My fear would be that those analog sticks are designed for thumb nubs not long bars. I would think breakage would be a problem. Also when you pull the collective up gravity would pull it right back down since the analog part would'nt have enouph resistance. Have you done this? If so I would love to see your design and how you overcame those problems. I imagine a 1/8th circle plate (45 degree arc) with zig zag design, not on the edge but the surface coupled with a perpindicular gear to the surface with a thumb activated naturally on brake (like a car emergency brake) would solve this.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Walker450 disregard my previous post. When you said gamepad I was on a totally different wavelength. I thought you meant like an XBox 360 controller or something. I would'nt call that Belkin a gamepad though. I would call it an auxillary input device :).

[schkorpio]

awesome, thanks for the help everyone :)

 

So far on my purchase list I've got the

 

Logitech G940

TrackIR 5

 

 

 

Also how well does the HOTAS throttle work as a Collective? or should i purchase another joystick and mount it sideways?:)

[EtherealN]

EtherealN do you fly in a squadron just out of curiosity? Also thats a great Idea for a collective. My fear would be that those analog sticks are designed for thumb nubs not long bars.

 

Actually, my own recipe is to connect the bar to a disassembled Sidewinder stick - works out of the box, since you then just place the collective as that stick's Y axis and put it in rails to prevent it from moving horizontally. The gamepad comes in at the top, close to your hand, allowing you to place an excellent thumbstick for Shkval movement as well as use the button panels for additional keys. If it has analog bumpers (like the Xbox 360 pad), they can serve roles such as wheel breaks and so on.

 

And no, I'm not presently active in any squad.

 

I would think breakage would be a problem. Also when you pull the collective up gravity would pull it right back down since the analog part would'nt have enouph resistance.

 

Counterweights in the mounting and friction surfaces will solve this for you. Over in the Controllers/SimPIT section there's a bunch of threads with some genious solutions. Note also that if you use a stick with twist action as the basis, the introduction of a friction surface or similar measure can allow you to use that a throttle for simulating helicopters that do not have automatic throttles.

 

Have you done this? If so I would love to see your design and how you overcame those problems.

 

I have started. The kit is disassembled and a curtain rod has been drafted as a lever, and I'm right now just holding out for selection of kit to handle the wiring issue, since a lot of specialist wires have to be extended.

 

1. Make sure your stick has forcefeedback. It is difficult to get the helo into hover without it. Also note force feedback is not a rumble like on a console controller. A force feedback will actually give more or less resistance as you try to move the stick. I personally use a Microsoft Force Feedback 2.

 

I do not agree with this. My stick is an FFB one, but note that almost all (G940 being the exception) of the HOTAS offerings out there are not FFB. Exactly why FFB would assist in achieving hover is something I don't quite see - in the case of this simulator all it would do is hold the stick, and the release-and-center trimmer implemented in DCS:BS works perfectly for me.

 

"More or less resistance" sounds more like a spring rather than FFB - although many sticks that have FFB but not a spring will use the FFB motors for the same effect.

 

The reason why most of the "upmarket" HOTAS kits do not have FFB is that they use Hall Effect Sensors and such kit rather than standard potentiometers and mechanical kits to detect the movement of the stick - HES offers vastly greater precision than mechanical hinge designs does (at least if you want it "simple" enough to fit a consumer pricetag), but has the drawback that with no such contact at the hinge FFB is pretty much rules out since you have nothing for your motors to work on.

[EtherealN]

awesome, thanks for the help everyone :)

 

So far on my purchase list I've got the

 

Logitech G940

TrackIR 5

 

 

 

Also how well does the HOTAS throttle work as a Collective? or should i purchase another joystick and mount it sideways?:)

 

Be very very careful to read reviews first about the G940. Down in the controller section you'll find a lot of people that are describing some very big driver issues affecting that kit with DCS:BS.

 

HOTAS works very well as a collective. Only go the stick route if you want to build yourself a custom collective.

[walker450]

I am using a $20 Saitek ST290 Joystick for my cyclic, modded with hydraulic dampers from an RC car suspension. I do not need to trim while flying and it is very precise- better than I imagined. The stick stays where you put it....

 

Once again, I highly recommend trying this method and seeing if it works for you. See my signature link for more info and videos of me using it.

 

The cyborg has a throttle on the stick which would work fine for a collective until you were able to get a true HOTAS.

 

As for using the gamepad for a collective, that works well but I prefer to leave it on the desk and use my X-52 throttle for the collective.

 

Google "left side limited" for info on using a gamepad for the collective....

Edited February 26, 2010 by walker450

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Well EtherealN I wrote a long drawn out explanation as to how this differed from a spring but as I reread it before post it seemed like stereo instructions. So I rethought and simplified it. The way that it is different from a spring set up is that with a spring the joystick it will always pull to the actual center of the stick. Regardless of where you set trim that joystick will always ,always want to go to physical center. WIth a force feedback, mine at least, center may not actually be the physical center of the stick. If you have your joystick physically centered it may pull one direction or the other in hover because your trim is off. That is how it helps you enter perfect hover. I know that there is a reset trim to center function. And I do use it if I auto hover, However, I find even using reset trim to center that I have to trim a bit to get it to stop drifting. Perhaps your technique is superior to mine. So as you can see a spring and actual force feedback are nothing alike. One offers tactile feedback, the other just centers itself.

Edited February 26, 2010 by ZQuickSilverZ