Next DCS (US) Fixed Wing Aircraft Wish List

[Advicepuppy]

A little bit OT but those who like the f-35 should watch some documentaries about it, its been a disaster in both design, production, and (one of these years) in application. It was designed to replace existing planes such as our beloved a-10 and f-16 and it doesn't perform the role at all well in either case. Some of the things is that it's been problematic because of the multiple configurations and to fast and inefficient to have much of a loiter capability, to heavy to replace the f-16 as far as weapon load-out and payload weight. pretty much all it's got going for it (as far as public knowledge) is stealth.

 

 

Not trying to start a disagreement on the forums but just punch up some documentaries on google. One of the good ones is the lead designer of the a-10 commenting on it after being privy to internal design and testing of the f-35.

 

I also read some frightening stuff about the F-35 and the F-22. Yes, even the F-22 was apparently outclassed HEAVILY in war games with Sukhoi Su-37.

[wess24m]

I also read some frightening stuff about the F-35 and the F-22. Yes, even the F-22 was apparently outclassed HEAVILY in war games with Sukhoi Su-37.

 

I believe the designer of the a-10 mentions that as well...I'll link the videos for everybody when I get home.

 

There is a huge uproar in Canada because of the project, they were promised that (some)of the parts for the f-35 would be manufactured in Canada which turned out to be either a flat out lie or it was for something minor that could be provided by existing aircraft supply companies in the states, it's been a couple months since I've watched them.

 

There was something about Canada just paying for a fleet of fully upgraded super hornets and then while the governing board (whatever they call it in Canada) was out for winter break the order was placed by the defense minister.

[GGTharos]

If by 'outclassed heavily' you mean 'killed them with complete and utter impunity', then yes. Incidentally though, there have never been any wargames with Su-37's. The last Su-37 crashed years ago. It's successor is the Su-35BM, IIRC, and it isn't an F-22 competitor, and never will be.

 

Yes, even the F-22 was apparently outclassed HEAVILY in war games with Sukhoi Su-37.

[GGTharos]

A little bit OT but those who like the f-35 should watch some documentaries about it, its been a disaster in both design, production, and (one of these years) in application. It was designed to replace existing planes such as our beloved a-10 and f-16 and it doesn't perform the role at all well in either case. Some of the things is that it's been problematic because of the multiple configurations and to fast and inefficient to have much of a loiter capability, to heavy to replace the f-16 as far as weapon load-out and payload weight. pretty much all it's got going for it (as far as public knowledge) is stealth.

 

The USAF and USN have received their first operational F-35's. You might notice that they are not complaining - it's quite maneuverable, it has good acceleration, range, and growth room. It can replace the F-16 just fine - far less drag while hauling as much fuel as an F-16 with two or three externals ... but the F-35 packs it all inside. There has been a lot of silly criticism leveled at this aircraft by people who don't even have half a clue of what they're talking about - and what's more, the F-35 features information and hardware technologies that are being backported to other aircraft.

 

One of the good ones is the lead designer of the a-10 commenting on it after being privy to internal design and testing of the f-35.

Not very useful comparison, and as I recall it was one of the opinions dismissed by those who are in fact /current/ in air combat matters.

[MemphisBelle]

One can tell what they want. The F-16 and the Hog do have a soul. Oh dear...what shall this going to...imaging the sky without the beautiness of a Fighting Falcon and the powerness of a Warthog...instead we get a super techno plane which looks ugly and has no soul. :cry:

[GGTharos]

Not only it has soul, it reaps the souls of its enemies. And their planes. And their SAMs. And that's what it's all about ;)

 

One can tell what they want. The F-16 and the Hog do have a soul. Oh dear...what shall this going to...imaging the sky without the beautiness of a Fighting Falcon and the powerness of a Warthog...instead we get a super techno plane which looks ugly and has no soul. :cry:

[JS]

Though they can not tell us ,at least they can tell us why they can't.

 

I have been following this discussion, and this is exactly the problem. All this could have been easily avoided if we were just told why we can't be told yet what the next aircraft will be. Is it a legal thing with a contract? Some technical issues that needs to be further looked into? Is the exact aircraft or version not 100% locked down yet?

 

If we knew why the information is being withheld, we would understand. This "we're not going to say anything" response is just frustrating and annoying.

[GGTharos]

Is the exact aircraft or version not 100% locked down yet?

 

I think that might be likely.

 

If we knew why the information is being withheld, we would understand. This "we're not going to say anything" response is just frustrating and annoying.

 

I'll politely point out that in some sense you're not entitled to that information :)

[wess24m]

I also read some frightening stuff about the F-35 and the F-22. Yes, even the F-22 was apparently outclassed HEAVILY in war games with Sukhoi Su-37.

The USAF and USN have received their first operational F-35's. You might notice that they are not complaining - it's quite maneuverable, it has good acceleration, range, and growth room. It can replace the F-16 just fine - far less drag while hauling as much fuel as an F-16 with two or three externals ... but the F-35 packs it all inside. There has been a lot of silly criticism leveled at this aircraft by people who don't even have half a clue of what they're talking about - and what's more, the F-35 features information and hardware technologies that are being backported to other aircraft.

 

Not very useful comparison, and as I recall it was one of the opinions dismissed by those who are in fact /current/ in air combat matters.

 

 

The f-35 may replace f-16 but there is no argument against the inefficiency of a jet engine against a turbo fan at low altitudes and low air speeds, yup I read about the dismissal of the claims by the people criticizing the f-35..they are engineers and designers for Lockheed-Martin..no bias there.

 

This is from 35 minutes ago

 

"The latest look at the F-35 does not paint a pretty picture. While it doesn't identify any show-stoppers, it does identify a raft of design and programmatic problems. Among the most worrying: the advanced helmet doesn't work as it should and no one has come up with answers to its problems, which were identified about a year ago. Problems with the highly advanced helmet seem to ripple through various aspects of the plane's technical and operational performance; the F-35C's tail hook doesn't work properly and the plane can't perform carrier landings right now (perhaps the Marines are chuckling over that one...); the plane's air warfare capabilities suffer from "..unsatisfactory progress and the likelihood of severe operational impacts for survivability, lethality, air vehicle performance, and employment;"

 

From 2 weeks ago

 

"Currently "[The U.S. Air Force and Department of the Navy] are waiting for aircraft flight clearance for test pilot maturation flights," a senior DoD official said. Further, "both services are still trying to determine how many maturation hours are needed by test pilots before instructor pilots and then students can be trained."

 

far from operational..

 

 

From 7 days ago

 

The U.S. Air Force has apparently also has come to the conclusion it's a little too early to let anyone but its test pilots fly the F-35. InsideDefense.com reports (pay-per-view) that Air Force Secretary Michael Donley has agreed with Director of Operational Testing Michael Gilmore that the F-35 is not ready to begin pilot training at Eglin Air Force Base in Fla.

 

"The Air Force agreed with Dr. Gilmore that there were still outstanding risks associated with the Joint Strike Fighter flight training at Eglin AFB," according to a summary of a memo Donley sent to Frank Kendall, DOD's acting head of weapons acquisition. "We emphasized that a military flight release (MFR), which would permit flight operations to begin, will not be issued, and subsequently training in [conventional-takeoff-and-landing] aircraft will not commence, until these risks have been accepted or mitigated using established processes."

[MemphisBelle]

I have been following this discussion, and this is exactly the problem. All this could have been easily avoided if we were just told why we can't be told yet what the next aircraft will be. Is it a legal thing with a contract? Some technical issues that needs to be further looked into? Is the exact aircraft or version not 100% locked down yet?

 

If we knew why the information is being withheld, we would understand. This "we're not going to say anything" response is just frustrating and annoying.

 

 

You need to understand that it may happen quite fast that plans are changing (recall the A-10 Phenomenon). So ED made a decission: "Lets inform the community about the next modul once we self do 100% know that the one we are currently working on, will be the one we release".

 

That´s why Wags provided us the roadmap about upcoming things .

I wouldn´t waste time and energy in crying for updatenews...they´ll come, be sure and enjoy what you have.

[beaupower32]

Kinda funny to see what some people think they know about the F-35 from a few different sources. The F-35 is doing just fine in all aspects of flight, and The pilots out here have not had any problems with the helmet. All systems are preforming great, and we are maturing them more and more every day. Its a new fighter with some new technology, it will take a little time to get the bugs out.

 

 

BTW, I should know cause I am a mechanic on AF-3 here at Edwards AFB.

[GGTharos]

The f-35 may replace f-16 but there is no argument against the inefficiency of a jet engine against a turbo fan at low altitudes and low air speeds, yup I read about the dismissal of the claims by the people criticizing the f-35..they are engineers and designers for Lockheed-Martin..no bias there.

 

Actually there are USAF staff as well. By the way, the turbo-fan ... is a jet engine. In fact, the F-16 also uses a turbo-fan, but it is low-by-pass by comparison. The F-35's slow speed thrust will be just fine.

 

"The latest look at the F-35 does not paint a pretty picture. While it doesn't identify any show-stoppers, it does identify a raft of design and programmatic problems. Among the most worrying: the advanced helmet doesn't work as it should and no one has come up with answers to its problems, which were identified about a year ago. Problems with the highly advanced helmet seem to ripple through various aspects of the plane's technical and operational performance; the F-35C's tail hook doesn't work properly and the plane can't perform carrier landings right now (perhaps the Marines are chuckling over that one...); the plane's air warfare capabilities suffer from "..unsatisfactory progress and the likelihood of severe operational impacts for survivability, lethality, air vehicle performance, and employment;"

 

Sounds like some plane from 30-40 years ago ... turkey? ... eagle? I don't know of any modern fighters that weren't a 'total disaster' from the start.

 

"Currently "[The U.S. Air Force and Department of the Navy] are waiting for aircraft flight clearance for test pilot maturation flights," a senior DoD official said. Further, "both services are still trying to determine how many maturation hours are needed by test pilots before instructor pilots and then students can be trained."

 

far from operational..

 

 

They're IOC. Not my term.

 

The U.S. Air Force has apparently also has come to the conclusion it's a little too early to let anyone but its test pilots fly the F-35. InsideDefense.com reports (pay-per-view) that Air Force Secretary Michael Donley has agreed with Director of Operational Testing Michael Gilmore that the F-35 is not ready to begin pilot training at Eglin Air Force Base in Fla.

 

"The Air Force agreed with Dr. Gilmore that there were still outstanding risks associated with the Joint Strike Fighter flight training at Eglin AFB," according to a summary of a memo Donley sent to Frank Kendall, DOD's acting head of weapons acquisition. "We emphasized that a military flight release (MFR), which would permit flight operations to begin, will not be issued, and subsequently training in [conventional-takeoff-and-landing] aircraft will not commence, until these risks have been accepted or mitigated using established processes."

 

 

Sounds normal ... they haven't had the plane long enough to have their own pilots fly it the air force (or navy) way, figure it out and create all the right processes and other details. Not to mention they don't really have that many planes yet either.

[wess24m]

Kinda funny to see what some people think they know about the F-35 from a few different sources. The F-35 is doing just fine in all aspects of flight, and The pilots out here have not had any problems with the helmet. All systems are preforming great, and we are maturing them more and more every day. Its a new fighter with some new technology, it will take a little time to get the bugs out.

 

 

BTW, I should know cause I am a mechanic on AF-3 here at Edwards AFB.

 

Seeing as the "few sources" were from the DOD statements and memos released to the public ,thats as close to knowledge about the f-35 us in the general public can get..was pointing out they weren't delivering fully operational units yet. Not claiming I know all the details as I assume you do...:huh:

[wess24m]

Actually there are USAF staff as well. By the way, the turbo-fan ... is a jet engine. In fact, the F-16 also uses a turbo-fan, but it is low-by-pass by comparison. The F-35's slow speed thrust will be just fine.

 

 

 

Sounds like some plane from 30-40 years ago ... turkey? ... eagle? I don't know of any modern fighters that weren't a 'total disaster' from the start.

 

 

 

 

They're IOC. Not my term.

 

 

 

 

Sounds normal ... they haven't had the plane long enough to have their own pilots fly it the air force (or navy) way, figure it out and create all the right processes and other details. Not to mention they don't really have that many planes yet either.

 

 

"The USAF and USN have received their first operational F-35's."

 

your term..

 

The a-10 was rejected by the air force because it doesn't like CAS missions, not because of it's design and multiple problems before it was even fielded.

[GGTharos]

"The USAF and USN have received their first operational F-35's."

 

your term..

 

Yep, they're IOC. Initial operational capacity. They're operational, however you might like to spin that :)

 

The a-10 was rejected by the air force because it doesn't like CAS missions, not because of it's design and multiple problems before it was even fielded.

 

I wasn't talking about the A-10, but okay.

[wess24m]

Yep, they're IOC. Initial operational capacity. They're operational, however you might like to spin that :)

 

 

 

I wasn't talking about the A-10, but okay.

 

Not spinning anything, I provided up to date releases of the public release of information. If you'd like to pretend that they're flying around saving our troops more power to you. Like I said before, I'm not trying to start a flame war just saying the documentaries are a good watch Whether you believe them or not.

 

 

By your definition of IOC

 

 

USAF FIGHTER UPGRADE PROGRAMS GROW AMID JSF DELAYS

 

november 30, 2011

By: Keith Arscott For now, at least, the Joint Strike Fighter isn’t going anywhere. According to U.S. defense officials who have vowed to protect the program from looming defense cuts, there are no alternatives to the fifth generation fighter. These assurances do little to change the fact that the most expensive defense program in history is continuing to experience delays. Even the most stable of the three JSF variants – the Air Force’s F-35A – will see its initial operational capability (IOC) slip by another two years to sometime in 2020

 

"They're operational, however you might like to spin that "

 

yup so are flying cars, not seeing them being used.

Edited December 14, 2011 by wess24m

[BrumTx]

And here i am thinking this is a "WISH LIST" post.............................................

[Night]

DCS: Flight Mechanic, where one must assemble the powerplant and other systems in an A-10? :)

[wess24m]

And here i am thinking this is a "WISH LIST" post.............................................

 

 

I apologize, didn't mean to derail the topic :) carry on gentlemen.

 

I wish for...a full cockpit in every retail box of dcs: a10c

[Wichid]

We can keep wishing but ED wouldn't announce the next release for many reasons, none of which they would want to actually express to us. Some random examples:

 

Current sales can drop off: People will stop buying whats currently out in anticipation of the new thing.

 

Competition: They may not want to tip off the competition to come out with a half baked similar product.

 

The specs they are a chang'n: Some companies have concurrent development so depending on what comes to fruition first will determine what the next module is. (Will the carrier ops be a working proof of concept before the two seater with ground radar proof of concept? Or shall we fall back on a third option?)

 

Green light: Some combination of complications may lead ED to not be confident enough to confirm the features and they don't want to be called liars when a spec changes. ie. What desktop trainer contracts allow us to tie in a new module?

[JS]

You need to understand that it may happen quite fast that plans are changing (recall the A-10 Phenomenon). So ED made a decission: "Lets inform the community about the next modul once we self do 100% know that the one we are currently working on, will be the one we release".

 

So you know that the reason for the information being withheld is that the type of aircraft is not locked down 100% yet? When did they say that? All I've seen on this is basically "no comment".

 

I'm convinced that they have a very good reason for not releasing information on the type of aircraft yet, and the point I was trying to make is that if they'd just share this reason people would understand, and a major source of frustration would be eliminated. And that whole discussion a few pages back would have been unnecessary.

[cichlidfan]

I'm convinced that they have a very good reason for not releasing information on the type of aircraft yet, and the point I was trying to make is that if they'd just share this reason people would understand, and a major source of frustration would be eliminated. And that whole discussion a few pages back would have been unnecessary.

 

It is actually quite obvious what the reason is...

 

They don't want to!:P

[jp203000]

ED knowns the fast jet they are working on is the most popular one.

[BrumTx]

Can someone start a couple of post's please

#1 Called "I know more than you"

#2 Called "ED is against us because we want it now"

or my favorite

#3 "The whole world is against me because ED won't tell me what the new module is"

 

Guy's and Gal's this is a WISH LIST not a why won't ED tell me list, grow up and stop acting like a petulant 7 year old who keeps on asking what his Christmas / Whatever Day present is.

The "we want to know" question is as old as a worn out 45 vinyl record and yes I do remember those, and the answer will always be the same.

(See my signature for the answer)

Edited December 14, 2011 by BrumTx

[Sunjah]

Can someone start a couple of post's please

#1 Called "I know more than you"

#2 Called "ED is against us because we want it now"

or my favorite

#3 "The whole world is against me because ED won't tell me what the new module is"

 

Guy's and Gal's this is a WISH LIST not a why won't ED tell me list, grow up and stop acting like a petulant 7 year old who keeps on asking what his Christmas / Whatever Day present is.

The "we want to know" question is as old as a worn out 45 vinyl record and yes I do remember those, and the answer will always be the same.

(See my signature for the answer)

 

PLEASE relax. My profession is to educate young children, the mass majority of who have been ages 9 & 10. I estimate that I have taught a full year of education to somewhere between 250-300 10 year olds, and have worked with many other kids in educational or extra-curricular activities.

 

You make three extremely sarcastic suggestions, and then tell everyone else they are acting like a 7 year old. People hear better when you speak to them, that is probably the biggest lesson I have learned in my 13 years of classroom education. I was frustrated, voiced my frustration, which led to many insults (some of which I insinuated and should not have), but it really isn't that a big of a deal.

 

Relax.

 

I disagree with not stating what the plane is. Many others do. Many do not and feel those who disagree are screaming out about undue entitlement. It is a 'wishlist', but anything that goes on 2 years obviously changes into something else, more of a rumor, to then fact type situation. That is why people keep coming back here to check, it is an important topic to them. It really did loose it's "wish list" state a long time ago in my view. Unfortunately, the makers of these games seem quite content in frustrating people by keeping their mouths closed.

 

I disagree that it alienates more people to change plans than to not announce them, but that is okay, it is my view. Obviously you are frustrated here too. It really isn't worth it, and I regret getting as frustrated as I did.

 

We'll know when we know, but personally I wish I felt more "cared about" by this company than I do. Do they owe it? No. That doesn't change the fact that is how I fell at present.

 

I know it sounds silly, but yes, it would make a world of difference to me if I knew the next aircraft would be a hornet with carrier ops. It would be tremendous for me, for personal reasons, but can we please just stop with the flipping out and attacking people?