Complaints about A-10A guns

[Krippz]

He thinks it's a bug. I know it's not, but I do find this to be rather... silly, for lack of a better word. It made flying the A-10A extremely disappointing compared to Lock On 1.12, but I believe this could be easily fixed in a patch.

 

Now, I actually -like- the tracer rounds, but I don't like how bullets hitting the ground just bounce off it like rubber balls. >_> It looks REALLY stupid.

 

Otherwise though, now that I've gotten some more patience, this game is pretty good.

 

I thought he would come back to eat humble pie....

[h00t74]

Here you are, I found one of many sources..

 

As a result, the entire gun assembly itself had to be mounted off-center in the other direction—towards the 3 o'clock position to compensate. It also lies below the aircraft's center of gravity, being boresighted along a line 2 degrees below the aircraft's line of flight. This arrangement accurately centers the recoil forces, preventing changes in pitch and/or yaw when firing. This configuration also provides space for the front landing gear, albeit mounted on the right side of the nose.

 

Source http://militarypower.wikidot.com/gau-8-avenger/p/4 In Last Paragraph about recoil myth

[mvsgas]

Here is a night a-10 strafing run. All you can do is here the cannon, No tracers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m-GzBYDqTs

 

Also, Is the gatling gun pointed down at all in the DCS A-10. They are in the real thing so the pilot can fly level and strafe the ground. Seems like I always have to dive strafe.

 

 

Here you are, I found one of many sources..

 

 

Source http://militarypower.wikidot.com/gau-8-avenger/p/4 In Last Paragraph about recoil myth

 

So, you are saying that because the gun is bore-sighted 2 degrees down that you can do a level gun pass? That the A-10 doesn't point the nose down to fire its Gun?

[GGTharos]

The strafing angle depends on the altitude you can fly at. There is an optimum angle, and then there is what you're allowed to do.

 

If your floor is 8000', you're going to be shooting from a pretty steep dive.

If your ceiling is 1000', you're probably looking at a shallow attack.

Shallow is not good, the geometry there works against you.

[h00t74]

I read about level strafing from a news artcle a few weeks ago, They revised their article to change it to minimize angle of dive for straffing. However, I knew there was a 1 or 2 degree differance in angle of flight and the gun positioning. I was wrong in the level straffing statement I admit that. I am not to proud to admit I am human.

[71st_Mastiff]

interesting it shakes the cockpit but you can bearly hear it.

 

Edited March 31, 2010 by Mastiff

[Bucic]

interesting it shakes the cockpit but you can bearly here it.

 

It's probably recording directly from radio channel and audio warning system - not through a microphone.

[Maximus]

interesting it shakes the cockpit but you can bearly here it.

 

 

nice catch, imagine you shooting a rifle with 30mm bullet. You will be probably falling backward with that huge recoil effect ;)

[mvsgas]

[Bucic]

This video is truly outstanding! I've downloaded it and watched Not so much watched as listened to :)

[Total]

video removed by moderator

Edited March 31, 2010 by EvilBivol-1

[Bucic]

people always ruin videos with music others may not want..

 

just sayin'

 

Let them know, what you think of them - join the action of HTFU music videos sissies :cheer3nc:

 

[Squid]

1. i am not sure what we see bouncing in the videos is actually rounds themselves. what are the chances that they are fired-up debris? In a rounds stream some rounds penetrate, some bounce as a whole and some bounce to pieces ?

 

2. I am not sure also if those tracers in the videos are tracer rounds or normal rounds that do exhibit tracing under lower light conditions (dawn, dusk, etc) How it goes ?

 

3. For sure what is missing from the FC2 avenger is some impact effects, bouncing or not, there should had been dust and debris launching around.

 

4. About the effectivenes of the Avenger in FC2, is it normal that i empty a whole drum on a single T-72 from breathing distance and i have to pass again with a maverick to kill it ? ......... i mean it doesnt even get a scratch (?)

 

5. Probably the feel would be more close to what we are used to see if the tracers effects get somewhat reduced or limited to their atmospherics visuals only and the bouncing was maybe also reduced and dust/debris/damage etc impact effects were added ....

Edited March 31, 2010 by Squid

[gekoiq]

With AP/API like the A10 mostly fires (5:1 API:HE), Unless a round is fired at a perfect 90* angle to the ground, there is a chance it will deflect and bounce, all the videos posted show this quite well, 7.62mm/20mm/23mm/30mm/105mm/120mm doesn't matter, as long as we're talking about a solid projectile (not HE/HEI) there is a chance it will deflect/bounce, this is pure elementary physics, think of it like skipping a stone on water, water is mass and dirt is mass, it is possible to skip anything off a body of mass with the right velocity and the right angle.

 

Now this is a game we're talking about, and a mid-fidelity sim at that, we aren't going to see perfect physics, the system in the game is very good under the circumstances, yes it seems goofy at first because this is the first time in a sim (besides DCS:BS) that we have really seen it. But it IS pretty realistic, whether you like it or not. Now whether the A10 in the game should be firing tracers is up for debate, but for the purposes of a mid-fidelity sim, I like the effect of the tracers, and I think it adds something to firing the gun.

 

The reason the A10 has such a high-rate of fire is to put a ton of lead (DU) on target every time the trigger is pulled. This is done because 1 or 2 or 10 rounds may not penetrate fully, may miss or may bounce. You put 100rds on target, say 10-20% bounce, 30% don't fully penetrate, 30% miss slightly, 20-30% hit the target AND fully penetrate hopefully hitting something vital and igniting a fire/explosion.

 

To the guy above me who can't kill a tank with the Avenger in FC2. I just set up a training mission for myself with some T72's, T80's, and a T55. The Avenger rips through them all with a solid accurate 100-150rd burst on target. It takes a few seconds for the target to explode after being hit. I have noticed (may or may not be accurate, but in my experience...) that it helps to engage the big MBTs from a steep dive so that your ammo hits the top of the turrent/top of the hull where the armor is weakest. From a shallow dive/angle it takes over twice as much ammo to kill one.

 

I start from about 4000ft and enter a fairly steep dive, hit the brakes and kill the throttle, zoom in and put a solid 150rd stream on the target to ensure a kill. It can be difficult but remember, when aiming, be smooth and deliberate, knee jerk movements wont work so well.

 

/first post here, hope it's helpful

 

Chris

[EvilBivol-1]

I have noticed (may or may not be accurate, but in my experience...) that it helps to engage the big MBTs from a steep dive so that your ammo hits the top of the turrent/top of the hull where the armor is weakest. From a shallow dive/angle it takes over twice as much ammo to kill one.

That's correct. The ground unit models include various levels of armor thickness around the vehicle. This, combined with the physics effects of gun ballistics, which include reduced probability of ricochet at higher impact angles and reduced penetration with lower impact velocity (greater shooting range) means that your target approach matters.

 

When developing Black Shark, we made a short video that demonstrates the difference in the amount of ammo it takes to kill a frontal target at longer range (second target) vs. a side target at short range (third target).

Edited April 1, 2010 by EvilBivol-1

[Squid]

thanks gekoiq :) and welcome

 

I noticed from the start that takes some time for vehicles, not just MBT, for example softer IFV etc before they start flame out or explode ... and untill then they look perfectly ok ... (damage textures would had been nice) actually so far they even rarely stop before they do so (am i that unlucky? lol)

 

And thats a nice realism addition, although amongst the imagery we have from A-10s, those of us who cant experience the real thing, the targeted MBTs seem to take serious damage right away. Theres clouds of dust and sparkles and debris and the tank shakes and bounces on its suspensions, sometimes even trackbelts are blown off or parts like the tower react as if hit by a hellfire , in general behave as if taking impact of something of massive weight/mass ...

 

So it would had been nice if the new damage behavior could mix with the older (LO,FC) model or in general randomize various "models" and offer a lot of instant pound / effect ... no matter API or HE being able to modeled

 

as it is now, firing avenger on MBTs or in general ground targets is TOO dry and FUNLESS ... and fun is a major part in the reason of such games existing and in the mix of relation-with-reality / exageration needed :)

 

I fire at a dive of around 30-60 degrees and i tried most of the time, unrealistically very close strafings to check the effectiveness .... not the results you report :( wonder what must i be doing wrong lol

Edited April 1, 2010 by Squid

[gekoiq]

I do agree with you, it would be really nice to see damage to tracks/wheels/weapons/antenna/sensors/impact marks/etc however I don't think that is possible to properly model on a desktop sim, most people are working with modest at best hardware when it comes to CPU/GPU. The developers have to cater to the masses, not the select few with Gulftown 6-core's and 5970's :) Not to mention the amount of coding/development that goes into damage models for all vehicles. FC2 is afterall an add-on. Perhaps in DCS:A10c we will see more elaborate damage to armor.

 

I still enjoy smoking a T80 with the Avenger from time to time, but as in real life, there is typically a much better tool for the job with the AGM-65/GBU-12/JDAM/MK20/CBU-97 at your disposal.

[Squid]

no no NOT that detailed damage. i mean if your vehicle isnt exploded instantly and took though damage, to have lets say new damaged textures , thats all. And ofcourse impact effects like in LO,FC, smoke, dust, etc

 

BTW if youd do that breaks throttle back approach in RL wouldnt the Avenger stall you ? Or is it gravity compensating?

[Bucic]

When developing Black Shark, we made a short video that demonstrates the difference in the amount of ammo it takes to kill a frontal target at longer range (second target) vs. a side target at short range (third target).

I new about armor thickness modeling in BS but I never thought that this video shows it off! I just thought it's all about ricochettes :)

[mvsgas]

no no NOT that detailed damage. i mean if your vehicle isnt exploded instantly and took though damage, to have lets say new damaged textures , thats all. And ofcourse impact effects like in LO,FC, smoke, dust, etc

 

BTW if youd do that breaks throttle back approach in RL wouldnt the Avenger stall you ? Or is it gravity compensating?

 

Not sure, IIRC the gun puts out about 9,000lb of recoil. The gun is not fire for to long tho, because the gases can stall/stagnate,flame out and engine. That's what happen to the A-10 ejection video we have all seen. Test pilot held the trigger for a bit to long and both engine flame out so he had to eject over the desert.

[mvsgas]

[Bucic]

 

:thumbup: again

[Squid]

i think what we all would like to see is similar to that

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lyFDJvuq6k

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Iz5MwPsfyo&feature=related

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJSk2Xc3Eq4&feature=related 1:5 and 4:03

 

 

i would suggest something like

 

- Half the ricochet of what is now

- tracers could be left like it is, no prob, or maybe reduced a tad

- option to "weaken" a little the MBT armor in gameplay settings

- more gun smoke and extending a bit to the front of the plane

- smoke, dust, debris, sparkles, small explosions, etc upon rounds impact

 

Notes about the videos

 

- there is some tracing

- noticed level gun runs, dont know if the camera was angled that way though

- there is some, little bouncing

- warthogs get quite close to targets in some occasions

 

i have the impression that the dispersion is wider in FC2 than in any of those videos, unless maybe its only my CH being more jerky than it should

 

despite the dispersion amount, my tests with other targets result in very easy kills, civilian targets for example take couple of rounds only and with fast relaxed aiming , that maybe is indicative that my aiming is adequate ?, as it takes me a whole evening and unlimited ammo to kill 4 T-72s ....

 

 

,

Edited April 1, 2010 by Squid

[Squid]

and the ultimate A-10 mod is already here.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Iz5MwPsfyo&feature=related

 

 

 

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[mvsgas]

So if I understand correctly, you are saying that, we need to wait until DCS-A10 come out so we all can have a better and more accurate A-10 simulation, I completely agree. :D