Why do AMRAAMs do this? Pictures attached

[GGTharos]

That and they fire earlier, so they are now easier to escape kinematically - however, if you are in their NEZ, you're toast :D

[GGTharos]

The 73 IS supposed to have a much longer range than the 9, at least if fired without requiring to use its thrust vectoring (which is something that I don't think is accounted for in missile physics in LOMAC right now)

 

But if you're having problems hitting with the 9, just USE THE STEERDOT!

 

It works, it really does.

 

73's are pretty susceptible to flares too if you do your evasions right. I've seen entire volleys of heat seekers, even R-77's pass right under/overr/beside me after being fired off by a desperate mig/su pilot ... so the 120's and the 9's aren't the only weapons that miss.

[Pilotasso]

I have no problem hitting online targets with the AIM-9, but lately my oponents have the tendency of forcing me into almost supersonic dogfights and the AIM-9 can only be fired within cannon range! You can only imagine how long I expose myself to unpleasant surprises with all that time I spend trying reach close enough to get a sidwinder off!

 

This is when I manage to get a shot at his six, when I aproach from other algles the relative speed is so great that I cant possibly turn any tighter in order to follow the steerdot at that range.

 

What happens is that I have replaced the Usual 9's load with more AMRAAM's, as thus these last became my primary dogfighting missiles.

 

Now I can fire a dogfighting oponent even if hes runnin away 5 miles in front of me and going supersonic. With the 9 either I would let him go away or chase him FOR A LONG TIME, meanwhile his buddies set up a trap while Im distracted with my cowerdly prey!

 

This happens a lot online and I got tired of loosing potencial targets when I am jumped by "rescuing cavalary". Not that they shoot me down that easely but my kill score was leaner that I deserved!! :p

[GGTharos]

That's not dogfighting ... that's the enemy running away from you. A 73 wont' reach a receding aircraft at 5 miles away, either.

 

I would reccomend disengaging ;)

[Pilotasso]

But with a r-73 and from frontal and lateral quadrants I have a much longer range to have the freedom to lead the missile into the steerdot (if the flankers had such a thing)

 

I fly both the eagle and the SUes and migs regularly, and its a BIG difference.

[S77th-GOYA]

The 73 blows the 9 out of the water. It's simply a better missle. If the 9X were modeled, then there might be an argument, but it isn't.

[Zero G]

Which just goes back to ED modeling things that are not yet in service for the Russian side and only old stuff for the US side. ;)

[GGTharos]

The R-73 is old news though.

[Kula66]

I've always found the 9 to be faily good (when launched with parameters) ... less easily confused than the 73 by flares although short range. Although the HMS/73 combination just blows away anything in the F-15 ... and has been in service for years!

[Pilotasso]

Im not quite complaining about the 9's agility.

 

you guys missed my objections:

 

Why is it the Sidwinder is rated Rmax=8km when all official souces point to twice that number.

 

OK, so the r-73 has longer range, but geez not to this extent!

[Guest DeathAngelBR]

Which just goes back to ED modeling things that are not yet in service for the Russian side and only old stuff for the US side. ;)

 

Too funny.

 

Where's the Su-27SM? Or better yet, where's the Su-35? What about the Su-33 with its fantasy upgrade? MiG-29SMT or OVT? When is ED going to add the R-73E? Or if they introduce India to the game, how about the R-73RDM2?

 

You want something that was/is in service? R-27P.

[D-Scythe]

Although the HMS/73 combination just blows away anything in the F-15 ... and has been in service for years!

 

I rather have an AIM-120 than the R-73 any time, any where, any place. There is no contest: between 1.5 and 4 miles, the AIM-120 and R-77 are the most lethal missiles in Lock On, though they are still no where close to "Death-ray" status.

 

In fact, IRL, the only reason why a Western HMS/SRAAM combo wasn't developed earlier was the overwhelming invincibility of the AIM-120 at 6 nm (11 km) or less.

 

Too funny.

 

Where's the Su-27SM? Or better yet, where's the Su-35? What about the Su-33 with its fantasy upgrade? MiG-29SMT or OVT? When is ED going to add the R-73E? Or if they introduce India to the game, how about the R-73RDM2?

 

You want something that was/is in service? R-27P.

 

...compensated for the: new uber fantasy data-link, the Ka-50, the R-77 capable MiG-29S (only the latest batch are R-77 capable) and the Su-34.

 

I firmly believe that ED did their best for realism - they modelled only things they knew about. So stop this West vs East nonsense. It's not worth it.

[GGTharos]

Im not quite complaining about the 9's agility.

 

you guys missed my objections:

 

Why is it the Sidwinder is rated Rmax=8km when all official souces point to twice that number.

 

OK, so the r-73 has longer range, but geez not to this extent!

 

 

If I recall correctly most sources rate it at 5-8nm, which makes the 8km range the bottom of that ...

[Pilotasso]

I rather have an AIM-120 than the R-73 any time, any where, any place. There is no contest: between 1.5 and 4 miles, the AIM-120 and R-77 are the most lethal missiles in Lock On, though they are still no where close to "Death-ray" status.

 

In fact, IRL, the only reason why a Western HMS/SRAAM combo wasn't developed earlier was the overwhelming invincibility of the AIM-120 at 6 nm (11 km) or less.

 

 

The israelis conceived the rafael derby for this reason too. Why drag a short range missile into extreme turns when we can do the same for a litle further away cuting off turns at mach >2.5 making the target look like its standing still?

 

Of course you cannot afford to buy only BVR missiles thats why the cheaper IR missiles are there. ;)

[D-Scythe]

The israelis conceived the rafael derby for this reason too. Why drag a short range missile into extreme turns when we can do the same for a litle further away cuting off turns at mach >2.5 making the target look like its standing still?

 

Of course you cannot afford the bill thats why the ceaper IR missiles are there.

 

What are you talking about? There is no 'bill.' I was saying the reason why the AIM-9X/ASRAAM wasn't developed earlier was because of the incredible performance of the AIM-120 WVR. Do you think that NATO would've kept with the AIM-9M in the late 1980s (before the collapse of the Soviet Union) if they still had the AIM-7? Obviously not - they would've spent billions trying to field an Archer counter as quickly as possible. With the AIM-120, they didn't have to: oh, a Flanker at 6 miles? No problem, we have AMRAAM...that was the way of thinking.

[Pilotasso]

What are you talking about? There is no 'bill.' I was saying the reason why the AIM-9X/ASRAAM wasn't developed earlier was because of the incredible performance of the AIM-120 WVR. Do you think that NATO would've kept with the AIM-9M in the late 1980s (before the collapse of the Soviet Union) if they still had the AIM-7? Obviously not - they would've spent billions trying to field an Archer counter as quickly as possible. With the AIM-120, they didn't have to: oh, a Flanker at 6 miles? No problem, we have AMRAAM...that was the way of thinking.

 

LOL way of thinking for rich countries... you think every airforce can buy BVR missiles just like that? Do you know how much an AMRAAM missile cost?! your talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars. If US equiped all its fighters with BVR missiles only even the mighty US airforce budget would go through the roof!

 

A sidwinder costs as much as a good car and an AMRAAM costs like a good house! Imagine that you jetison you missile load or waste a BVR missile on a flying camel rider? millions of dollars of waste that is...

 

would be like hunting rabits with an elephant gun!

 

oh and the Sparrow is still in service today...so what was the excuse for the AIM-9M? ;)

[D-Scythe]

We are talking about two different things. You completely misunderstood my. Read me post again ;)

 

BTW, one new AIM-120 missile costs about $380-400 thousand. AIM-9Xs that are being produced from AIM-9M parts go for about $60-100 thousand, depending on which figure you use.

[GGTharos]

The 9M is still around because it's both useful and hasn't yet been replaced.

 

It is a missile which fills the short-range mission parameters that the AMRAAM cannot (due to arming restrictions). The AMRAAM isn't suited to the close combat arena where a Sidewinder is used. For one thing, in RL is takes a whole three seconds for that thing just to come off the rails after you push the trigger.

 

The sidewinder doesn't suffer from that particular problem, and it can also engage aircraft much closer (smaller warhead, smaller range restriction on warhead arming etc)

 

The -9 isn't there because it's cheap, it's there because it's needed: The 120 can't replace it in a dogfighting environment. The fact that the 9X was developped pretty much proves that the 120 is not suitable for certain types of combat.

[D-Scythe]

The 9M is still around because it's both useful and hasn't yet been replaced.

 

It is a missile which fills the short-range mission parameters that the AMRAAM cannot (due to arming restrictions). The AMRAAM isn't suited to the close combat arena where a Sidewinder is used. For one thing, in RL is takes a whole three seconds for that thing just to come off the rails after you push the trigger.

 

Three seconds? No it doesn’t. The AIM-120 can be ‘launched’ from the wing rails like an AIM-9 or dropped from the fuselage like an AIM-7.

 

The sidewinder doesn't suffer from that particular problem, and it can also engage aircraft much closer (smaller warhead, smaller range restriction on warhead arming etc)

 

The AIM-120 can engage targets down to 1 nm. Not saying it does it as well as the AIM-9, mind you, just that it can.

 

The -9 isn't there because it's cheap, it's there because it's needed: The 120 can't replace it in a dogfighting environment. The fact that the 9X was developped pretty much proves that the 120 is not suitable for certain types of combat.

 

Actually, the AIM-120 can replace the AIM-9M, just like it can replace the AIM-7M. But both older missiles are still in service, and this is indicative of nothing. I have no doubt in my mind that at extremely short ranges, the AIM-9M outperforms AMRAAM, but the fact is that IRL between 2 and 6 nm, the AIM-120 is virtually a deathray, according to some accounts by its testers and pilots.

 

The AIM-9X was developed to provide an advanced dogfighting weapon that’s superior to the AIM-120 and the AIM-9, being able to kill things 90 degrees off boresight with its TVC and IIR seeker and all.

 

Note that I’m not saying that the AIM-120 is THE dogfighting weapon, just that it CAN be used in such a manner. And when fired within the right parameters, it is just as deadly as any dogfighting missile in the world. The same cannot be said for other MRAAMs that the AIM-120 replaced/designed to counter, like the AIM-7.

[GGTharos]

D-Scythe, the 120 CANNOT replace the 9M. That's liek saying that the 7 can replace the 9M. Sure, in the right conditions, using the right mode, you'll get a kill. The sidewinder won't requireyou to fullfill those same conditions however - the 120 on the other hand, WILL. This causes a problem, and yes, the fact that the 9 is still in service is indicative of a lot of things - to say it isn't is ignorant IMHO. The 120 is -not- a dogfighting missile, never was, never will be. Beyond a certair range, the closer you get, the ore restrictive the launch parameters for that weapon - by comparison, the more yoru 120's parameters become restricted, the more your 9's parameters open up, again down to a certain range. There's no magic here - the 120 is optimized for BVR and that's what it'll do best. It's not like the MICA series which have incorporated TV in order to allow their use as close-range weapons. Yet, they're heavy and their acceleration is unlikely to match that of a small dogfighting missile, which has been cited as an issu ein dogfights. That's why you have the 9M.

 

And yes, it takes its time to come off the rail - at least if you believe pilot reports, anyway. Newer versions may have squared this away, I don't know - but it was still an issue during the balkan war.

[D-Scythe]

D-Scythe, the 120 CANNOT replace the 9M. That's liek saying that the 7 can replace the 9M. Sure, in the right conditions, using the right mode, you'll get a kill. The sidewinder won't requireyou to fullfill those same conditions however - the 120 on the other hand, WILL. This causes a problem, and yes, the fact that the 9 is still in service is indicative of a lot of things - to say it isn't is ignorant IMHO. The 120 is -not- a dogfighting missile, never was, never will be. Beyond a certair range, the closer you get, the ore restrictive the launch parameters for that weapon - by comparison, the more yoru 120's parameters become restricted, the more your 9's parameters open up, again down to a certain range. There's no magic here - the 120 is optimized for BVR and that's what it'll do best. It's not like the MICA series which have incorporated TV in order to allow their use as close-range weapons. Yet, they're heavy and their acceleration is unlikely to match that of a small dogfighting missile, which has been cited as an issu ein dogfights. That's why you have the 9M.

 

Firstly, MICA uses IR, not TV. Second, the weight of the MICA is only 250 lbs, and it has TVC. A 250 lb, Mach 4 missile with TVC and a 6 second burn time is not likely to have any hang-ups with acceleration; the MICA IR is fully capable of replacing the Magic 2. And lastly, the AIM-9M is an *old* missile. It's a flare-eater, if several engagements in Desert Storm have meant anything.

 

And I *never* ever said that the AIM-120 is a dogfighting missile, merely that it is an incredible short-range AAM when it has to be. There's a difference. This has been the basis of everything I said so far.

 

And yes, it takes its time to come off the rail - at least if you believe pilot reports, anyway. Newer versions may have squared this away, I don't know - but it was still an issue during the balkan war.

 

Are we talking about the same thing here? What do you mean by "coming off the rail"? Because you can just google image search "AIM-120" and you can see dozens of photos of AMRAAMs blazing straight off the wing tips of F-16s, F-18s and wing rails of F-15s WITHOUT dropping (like the AIM-7). From the way I see it, it goes active most of the time instantly after launch when launched in such a manner.

 

Here's a link to a small video...you've probably seen it. http://www.danshistory.com/f15-u.avi. As you can see, it takes like 1 second at most (when dropped from the fuselage) to go active and tracking - at other times, its tracking right off the rail.

[GGTharos]

I know the MICA uses IR - one of the variants anyway. TV as in thrust vectoring ;) It's been pretty much stated that this sort of maneuvering cuts a missile's range to pieces.

 

There's loads of videos showing 9M's missing - that's not the point, really. The point is that at the ranges they're used the 120 is *useless*. There's videos showing 120's miss at relatively short ranges, too. The skullviper one shows a 120 (at least one) missing a crossing target that's unlilkely to be farther than 3nm. Possibly much closer.

 

And yes, it takes 3 seconds to come off the rail, as in, you pull the trigger, it launches three seconds later. So far Iv'e seen nothing to indicate that it goes active right away, but that's not an issue either - the pilots say it does, so it does. But that doesn't remove the arming/maneuvering contraints, either.

[D-Scythe]

Here's a link to a small video...you've probably seen it. http://www.danshistory.com/f15-u.avi. As you can see, it takes about 1 second at most (when dropped from the fuselage) to go active and tracking - at other times, its tracking right off the rail.

[GGTharos]

Okay well ... the first one is probably a sidewinder, and we don't even know if its launched from a 15 ... the last one is a sparrow - in essence there's no reliable 120 footage in this movie. At no instance is the 120 shown to be tracking on -screen - every time a missile tracks or hits something its anything BUT a 120 in that foortage insofar as I can see.

 

And I said, trigger pull to missile launch is a 3 second wait.

[D-Scythe]

Umm...it's pure AMRAAM footage. Okay, maybe some of the 'kill' shots may not have been AIM-120s (too much smoke IMO), but in the 'launching' footage, the first one was definitely an AIM-120, and the last one was also an AIM-120 - if you look closely, it was launched from the inner wing-rail. The F-15 can't carry AIM-7s on that hardpoint.