Tactics for combat against AI rotary threats

[Fish]

Hi All,

Would be interested in the tactics used against other choppers, like hellfire loaded AH64's or Mi24's, or even enemy Ka50's.

 

Cheers.

[isoul]

In general helos just avoid other helos and most important enemy aircrafts.

A Huey should avoid everything, Apache should possibly avoid the Shark and the Shark should avoid even the slowest mud-movers such as the A-10, not to mention actual fighter planes.

 

In the case of facing another helo, the Ka-50 has the advantage of moving faster and being more maneuverable. If you spot the enemy first at a distance you can engage him with Vikhrs but once you come at close range you should stay at enemy six and do the typical WWII dogfight with your cannon(which actually can tear apart the heaviest helos like Mi-24).

 

Keep in mind that helos have a very different flying behavior( that warplanes so the typical air combat maneuvers can't be performed or doesn't have the same application as in fighters.

 

In general... consider the helicopter as a fast moving ground asset rather than an air asset.

[Fish]

Thanks for the reply.

I'll give your advice a try.

[Ike4fin]

http://www.flightsimbooks.com/gunship/08_2_Air-to-Air_Tactics.php

[ZQuickSilverZ]

I have not encountered an A.I. Helo. I think I would probably prefer to use the cannon if possible though. You could drop your HMS and hold down (the o button, I forget what its called) to make the gun follow your head (with track IR) and try to strafe it, if the range was short enouph. I guess if it were far away you could shoot a vicker but they would get a warning. With the HMS they would'nt but it would be a hard shot. Honestly I just don't know. I think I would rather just avoid them.

[EtherealN]

Actually, isoul, I'm not quite in agreement with you. The Ka-50 has a set of good advantages (maneuverable, small footprint, long cannon range) but it also has a set of very servere weaknesses compared to pretty much every other attack helicopter in existance:

 

Limited Gun Traverse - Apaches, Cobras, Hinds, Havoks, Tigers, Roivaalks etcetera tend to have a much more agile gun turret; typically look-and-shoot, allowing them to engage you while flying perpendicular to you.

 

In a few cases, they also have fire-and-forget variants of the Hellfire - and while it is an ATGM, just like the Vikhr they can be pressed into service against some air threats. That would be you.

 

Once merged into a maneuvering fight, that turret is particularly nasty - while you essentially have to cage the gun and go WW2-style, the enemy just needst to snap around and place you anywhere in his forward hemisphere: then the CPG looks at you and presses the trigger.

 

Basically: don't dogfight. Let the migs and suchois handle enemy choppers. And if you get surprised and merged without having intended it: stay real good begind them if they're a turreted helicopter.

[isoul]

Actually, isoul, I'm not quite in agreement with you. The Ka-50 has a set of good advantages (maneuverable, small footprint, long cannon range) but it also has a set of very servere weaknesses compared to pretty much every other attack helicopter in existance:

 

Ethereal, I am not so sure about my argument either! Thats why I said that Apache "should possibly avoid the Shark"...

 

I am aware that the Apache's 20mm cannon can rotate and this is a big advantage over the fixed cannon of the Shark. Thats also why I suggested that in an unfortunate dogfight the Shark should use its manueverability and speed to stay at enemy's six. I would certainly say the opposite if Apache was faster and more agile but since it isn't I left the Shark a few chances more to win and of course I may be wrong!

 

One thing is for sure and I believe we both agree on that... "Leave the air-combat to fighter pilots". Helos aren't meant to engage other helos or aircaft... your No1 choice is to avoid air-combat at all times, all other options are in the misfortune category.

[EtherealN]

Agreed - one note tho: the Apache uses a 30mm, not a 20mm. (M230)

[JimMack]

Military helo pilots are obviously trained in tactics to employ against fixed wing fast and slow movers. This is in the main thereotical. Practical experience seems to be limited to the Falklands war, and in a couple of Red Flag exercises where on 2 occasions Hinds took out F-16s (google).

What is interesting is that players of FC2 and Black Shark will be in a position to experiment for themselves, and maybe re-write the military manuals, as this situation is not often practiced with military simulators, if at all!

 

This could be a similar situation to Flanker players in the Su27 who discovered that if they could survive BVR against F-15s, that after the merge because they had an HMS and off-boresight missiles, they had the edge.

This was discovered in a consumer simulator, and was later confirmed in real life when an F-16 squadron visited a Mig 29 squadron after the reunification of Germany (google and Air Forces Monthly).

Hence the introduction of HMS and AIM-9X into US inventory, about 20 years after Russia.

Edited May 7, 2010 by JimMack

[Blindspot]

In my experience in BS Hinds are best attacked from above "WW2 style". To get there ist the difficult part. You have to go in as fast as you can. If you are head to head try to lock one Hind and fire a Vikhr, so at least this one turns away from you for a short while. Fly around shells, do not fly constantly in one direction. If you are close enough use all your kinetic energy to gain altitude and fly something like a hammer head turn. While looking down on them, use your cannon and begin to speed up. In case you miss one, try to stay above turn around and never get too slow.

This was the most successful tactic to me against AI Hinds in BS.

[GGTharos]

Ethereal, I am not so sure about my argument either! Thats why I said that Apache "should possibly avoid the Shark"...

 

In general they are trained to avoid other flying things on both sides.

 

I am aware that the Apache's 20mm cannon can rotate and this is a big advantage over the fixed cannon of the Shark. Thats also why I suggested that in an unfortunate dogfight the Shark should use its manueverability and speed to stay at enemy's six. I would certainly say the opposite if Apache was faster and more agile but since it isn't I left the Shark a few chances more to win and of course I may be wrong!

 

I'm not sure where you get this 'more agile' stuff - it seems rather meaningless in a gunfight where an Apache needs to only put you on its 3-9 to engage you, while you have to point at it, and quite accurately at that. I don't see how a shark can 'stay on the opponent's tail' ... we're talking about VTOLs here. ;)

[JasBird]

In the game enemy helicopters has given me a lot of trouble. They are very hard to see and you need to scan a big area really quickly or I seem to get shot down fast. It's usually my wingman that sees them first and calls it out. I usually give them order to attack and at the same time try and find them and take them out with a Vikhr. I often find the wingmen doing a poor job taking out enemy helos and I think enemy helicopters is the reason for about 40% of my deaths. Wingmen also seems to follow enemy helos over enemy ground units which is also a problem engaging with the gun. Problems is that they always show up at worst possible moment. You are set up low and slow trying to avoid AA and SAM.

[Bushmanni]

My theoretical analysis and experience is suggesting that dogfighting doesn't happen with choppers. You basically can't defeat gunshot by maneuvering as you are too slow to avoid gun pipper or shells. When you are in the range, it's just a matter of gunnery skills. While turreted helicopters have the advantage over KA-50 as they can fly perpendicular to the enemy and make themselves a bit harder target while still able to engage with cannon they are still very vulnerable. AI doesn't use this tactic so this is just a theoretical advantage in BS at the moment. Getting into enemys six is a tactic doomed to fail as you are shot down long before you get to do that or you have shot down the enemy yourself. I have got one very close range gun fight with apache due to AI stupidity and when I flew past him and got into his six, he just pressed the pedal and I was back in his 12 in no time. There was simply no chance I could have kept in his six. Fortunately I had climbed while turning so he still couldn't shoot me and I just shot him down before he managed to get his pipper on me.

 

Being higher would be the only positional advantage the helicopter has over another in a fight. Being in bandits six is advantage only in sense that he doesn't see you and is of use only before the fight. That would be of course a huge advantage if it enables you to drop him without warning. Being a lot higher would give you some lasting advantage as he can keep his pipper on you only for a few seconds at a time as he has to keep his nose up and that can't be done for very long. Shooting Vikhrs on targets at lot higher altitudes is not going to happen.

 

I don't think any chopper has fire-and-forget missiles in BS? This makes the missile engagements matter of who kills the other first as that will spoil the lock of enemy missiles also. Hellfire has a bit more range than Vikhr so KA-50 has to dodge the first Hellfire before being able to shoot his Vikhr and kill the Apache. Dodging Hellfire is done only at long range with some well timed flying direction changes. I haven't been able to dodge Hellfire when closer than 4km. Against AI KA-50 you just shoot a little bit earlier than the enemy with manual mode. I have no experience against Mi-28 but the rest of the chopper threats have missiles with lot less range than Vikhr and are easily killed at stand-off range. The only problem would be spotting them early enough so they don't get too close.

 

I have no experience against multiple single chopper flights. I would assume they all would fire their missiles at you when in range. If they come at you pretty much simultaneously I would just run and hide and figure out a way to get them one at a time.

 

Only the leader of AI helicopter flight will engage a single target. So it's always dueling if fighting against a flight. If you initiate the fight inside Vikhr range, you can just pick off the enemies one by one as long as you do it in correct order and always shoot the current leader only. This AI behavior is the reason I got inside the guns range with Apache.

 

Vikhr is the fastest missile in game that any helicopter will carry and you will always get the first kill if the fight starts inside Vikhr range. And any missile the enemy has fired will miss when the firing chopper explodes as they don't buddy lase. I once got hit by a Vikhr that was guided in by a KA-50 that didn't have pretty much anything left of it except Shkval. So it doesn't always work but there's not much you can do about it.

 

If I have wingmen, I let them do the air combat and myself just observe and if necessary kill the enemies that my wingmen can't handle.

[isoul]

In general they are trained to avoid other flying things on both sides.

 

Agreed!

 

I'm not sure where you get this 'more agile' stuff - it seems rather meaningless in a gunfight where an Apache needs to only put you on its 3-9 to engage you, while you have to point at it, and quite accurately at that. I don't see how a shark can 'stay on the opponent's tail' ... we're talking about VTOLs here. ;)

 

While actual data about the Shark are quite rare in order to compare the two helicopters, the coaxial rotor is said to give better maneuverability. Still I may be wrong since there is not enough data to compare those too.

 

The point back there was not to say that Apache is worse that the Shark or the opposite. The point was to mention that every helo has a better one to threat it and all are inferior even to strike aircraft when it comes to air-combat.

 

To stay on six of an enemy helo means you have to get into position undetected(probably by setting up an ambush) at the first place and keep a distance behind it since its easy to overshoot an enemy helo when you are quite close. All these are somewhat theoritical since I don't know any actual air-combat between helos taking place and I don't know if helo pilots are extensively trained how to deal with other helos rather than taking evasive action and flying away. In game trying to stay in position where your enemy can't shoot you is the best tactic I 've found.

[GGTharos]

No, what I mean is ... they both fly like helis, since they are. They both have about the same lifting power - while a coax rotor might conver certain advantages (eg. higher climb rate) it's just hard to see what it's going to do for you in a fight like this.

 

There are few services that train their heli pilots for A2A in the same way you'd expect a fixed wing pilot to train for it.

Real A2A combat between helis has so far involved the use of ATGMs - they never got to gun range, at least AFAIK.

[Frederf]

I thought the Hellfires in DCS carried by the AH-64 were the newer fire and forget category.

[Stickers]

I have had some good luck shooting down Hinds with Vikhrs. You gotta see them before they see you though. Also don't forget to switch to AA mode so they detonate in proximity to the target.