Maximizing AAM P(k)

[dooom]

Well I got the lingo right... unfortunately not the technique.

 

I'd like to start a thread soliciting tips and tricks to help maximize my Su-27 air to air missile kill probabilities. I come from Black Shark and prop sims so my migration to the fixed wing world of LoMAC has begun to prove frustrating. At the moment I am only focusing on the SU-27... I like to take things one at a time. however; I am finding that I need help in terms of properly employing the AAM assets in combat.

 

Can anyone offer tips or links for my study to better utilize my R73, R27ER/ET?

 

Thanks!

[Moa]

Ok, I'm gonna be a mathematical pedant here, but just so someone told you at least once ...

 

Kill Probability is Pk (or P_k, read as "P sub k"). P(k) is read as "P as a function of k", and is not actually considered the same thing by folk with an engineering bent. Just so you know :)

 

Apologies for the digression ... I'll let others who are better than me in the Flanker give the tips.

[asparagin]

Some might fill pages on this topic, your question is too broad.

Here the main ideas:

 

R-73: dogfighting missile. You can miss when the enemy flares (can't do anything about it) or when you fire from a bad angle (e.g.: 90°), best to fire from a rear aspect. And of course like for all missiles you should be in range, and less then Rmax if possible.

 

R-27 ET:

There is a very recent thread about the R-27ET. You can read that and eventually ask questions there:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=54626

 

R-27 ER:

Long range missile, fire at high altitude, descent and be during missile flight always below the enemy to ensure stable lock. The Pk of the ER is low, and you can't do anything about it, because AFAIK, it was designed to use against bombers, and not agile fighters. It is best to fire in salves, maybe one at Rmax, and the second one closer. As always, closer= higher Pk.

 

For more specific info, search the forums.

Good hunting.

 

PS: you have of course also the R-27 T, and R. Same as ET and ER, just less range.

[SFJackBauer]

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/a2a.htm

 

But take your time to explore the full content of the site.

 

What prop sim have you played? If its a combat one, then you should already have some grasp of BFM (basic fighter maneuvers), if not go research it too.

Edited June 2, 2010 by SFJackBauer

[foxwxl]

IN FC2 R-27ER is no longer a "A2A ROCKET" anymore , it does go for the target unless he make a correct 3-9 line dodge

[asparagin]

IN FC2 R-27ER is no longer a "A2A ROCKET" anymore , it does go for the target unless he make a correct 3-9 line dodge

 

It still is but limited. For e.g.: yesterday I got killed by one, because I didn't do "a correct 3-9 line dodge" :D because then again I would have lost my SA. The limitation comes IMO from it's poor maneuverability (compared to some newer actives) which lowers the pk, even if you use the proper tactic.

[SFJackBauer]

For e.g.: yesterday I got killed by one, because I didn't do "a correct 3-9 line dodge" :D because then again I would have lost my SA.

 

But that's the point of firing the ER - fire first, hostile goes defensive, you close in, fire another, if the target still is flying close in more, switch from radar to EOS, he feels secure now, then finish him off with ET or 73.

 

If he doesn't go defensive and keep running straight into the missile, well... bonus! :)

[topol-m]

But that's the point of firing the ER - fire first, hostile goes defensive, you close in, fire another, if the target still is flying close in more, switch from radar to EOS, he feels secure now, then finish him off with ET or 73.

 

If he doesn't go defensive and keep running straight into the missile, well... bonus! :)

 

Actually he can fire a missile or two at you and then go defensive :)

[asparagin]

But that's the point of firing the ER - fire first, hostile goes defensive, you close in, fire another, if the target still is flying close in more, switch from radar to EOS, he feels secure now, then finish him off with ET or 73.

 

If he doesn't go defensive and keep running straight into the missile, well... bonus! :)

 

That's what I said in my first post (see ER).

The bad part is, that following your tactic you fire 3 missiles for 1 enemy out of your 8 and are at the end at the mercy of his wingman.

A tactic that involves above 2 missiles per enemy, I don't find good.

Edited June 2, 2010 by asparagin

[Scudslaker]

for me,..the only thing to improve "skill" is practicing..

the theoretical literature, is a good basement you can find @ flankertraining for example,..but practice is the key

[SFJackBauer]

Actually he can fire a missile or two at you and then go defensive :)

 

Dodging incomings is part of the job... but if you feel you can't make it, then disengage and go home.

 

That's what I said in my first post (see ER).

The bad part is, that following your tactic you fire 3 missiles for 1 enemy out of your 8 and are at the end at the mercy of his wingman.

A tactic that involves above 2 missiles per enemy, I don't find good.

 

His wingman must be dealt by mine. If I'm alone in a russian AC against two hostiles hot, I just keep distance.

 

Regarding missiles, I'm not far from the soviet doctrine of firing salvoes. But I take it more from experience than anything - Alamos lose lock easily, you may not rely on only one to assure a high PK.

 

If you have any suggestions on how to reliably kill an F-15 in BVR using Su-27 and only one missile, please share :)

[asparagin]

If you have any suggestions on how to reliably kill an F-15 in BVR using Su-27 and only one missile, please share :)

 

Sorry but I have to ask again: Have you red my first post?

[foxwxl]

The ideal tactics for SU27 against F-15 is just like SFJackBauer said , using the long range of the ER for first shot to make the target go defence, when he is going to turn back,you give him another shot. Keep the target busy dodging your ER and not give him a chance to search U on the radar and fire AIM-120 at close range or at least not able make a good guide for the ARHs.

 

One thing should be mentioned, in FC2 ARHs are much more advanced than the SARHs, You shouldn't consider R-27ER vs AIM-120C is a fair deal, so there are no good using ER to deal with 120 in BVR. This tactics is just give you a way to fight back, not to take advantages over F-15s.

[combatace]

Well Go high like some 10Km and shoot the missile, keep the steering dot in the HUD and keep descending till 7-6Km if target is above you, as you will be out maneuver his missile only in below 7Km, and if target is below you keep descending keeping your nose on him.

 

P.S. I have seen people fleeing away after first missile has been fired(on many servers) at them than there remain just one option with following probability,

 

1. If F-15 is chasing Su-27/Su-33 faster F-15(without tanks) will catch Su-27 and kill it or will loose all of it fuel and crash.

2. If Su-27 is chasing F-15 it will just remain a long chase untill f-15 looses all its fuel.

3. If F-15 is chasing Mig-29, mig will loose fuel early and will be shot down, its speed won't matter much here, like cheetah faster but for short period.

4. If Mig-29 is chasing F-15, if will catch F-15 and will shoot it down, condition is it still having a medium range missile.

[SFJackBauer]

Sorry but I have to ask again: Have you red my first post?

 

Yes yes :) Actually your first post is dead on accurate on all aspects. But then afterwards you said firing 3 missiles is a waste... IMO is not a waste, but a necessity. Of course you keep firing until it is dead, but suppose we didn't had the convenience of kill messages... how would you know the bandit is splashed?

 

Even against bombers, firing only one missile would mean a low PK and probably a wasted sortie.

[combatace]

Smoke trail of a hit plane can be seen from even 50KM distance.

[Moa]

The Russian tactic of firing salvos refers to firing dissimilar types IIRC. While you're busy flying the aircraft and dealing with the incoming radar-guided missile (for which you'll have an alert in the cockpit screaming at you) a silent ET is streaking toward you. It's an easy way to kill n00bs to do this.

 

On the receiving side, you must always assume an ET is inbound if you are within (or even just outside) launch range from the enemy. A turn away and flares helps here.

 

One thing I've learned to do to survive is before you go defensive you should be putting an active homer towards your attacker. If you defend only your attacker gets closer and closer before getting you.

 

You must force your own attacker to go defensive before you go defensive (and it's one-on-one). If you have a wingman then this changes (you can save your ammo) since he can force your attacker defensive and give you time to set up again - this is why flying alone is suicidal compared to a Loose Deuce fighting pair.

[asparagin]

Yes yes :) Actually your first post is dead on accurate on all aspects. But then afterwards you said firing 3 missiles is a waste...

 

I didn't say it's a waste, I said it's a bad tactic. Sure you can win a battle with a bad tactic. (But can you win ZE WAR :D)

[SFJackBauer]

I didn't say it's a waste, I said it's a bad tactic. Sure you can win a battle with a bad tactic. (But can you win ZE WAR :D)

 

In Desert Storm, the USAF/USN shot 71 Sparrows, downing 26 Iraqi planes - 37% hit rate. And they still won the war.

 

I just question the terminology here. Its not a bad tactic, its a good tactic given the bad PK that only one (SARH) missile have. The whole Flanker/Alamo package was designed with firing salvos in mind (even dedicated cockpit switches for that), otherwise why pack 8 missiles in a fighter that tracks only one target at time (considering earlier Flanker versions).

 

Now lets make a "fair" comparison and put Alamo against Sparrow. How many Sparrows an F-15 must fire against a ER-equipped Flanker to kill it while not being shot down? ;)

[GGTharos]

Two. Together. By the time the flanker gets LA the sparrow will be half-way there.

Of course, that's assuming it was a real Su-27S, and a real F-15C, not the flanker-clone-with-F-15-skin that we have in game ;)

 

... where is a fueling the fire smiley where you need one ...

[topol-m]

Two. Together. By the time the flanker gets LA the sparrow will be half-way there.

 

How`s that? :huh:

[GGTharos]

I can only guess; what I was told literally was 'for reasons I wish I could tell you' ...

If you can look for and find actual training documents for F-15C pilots you will also find that they trained 2v6-8 (2-4 fighters + 2-4 Strikers) for defense and escort missions ... successful conditions were destruction of some numbers of enemies and driving off the rest usually .. and that's when they were packing sparrows.

 

I was fairly surprised myself. My only guess is that the TEWS + Radar are a very powerful ECM/ECCM combination compared to the opposition.

 

How`s that? :huh:

[topol-m]

Hmm... And that is also valid assuming the enemy is also using ECM/ECCM?

[GGTharos]

Yes, up to about 2005 I believe - again, very iffy assumptions :)

 

(Training targets were MiG-21's up to Su-27 for fighters)

 

Hmm... And that is also valid assuming the enemy is also using ECM/ECCM?

[topol-m]

Yes, up to about 2005 I believe - again, very iffy assumptions :)

 

(Training targets were MiG-21's up to Su-27 for fighters)

 

Forget about the mig-21s :) but what kind of ECMs the Su-27s were using?