rockets

[Eddie]

As for real pilots I think they would take the fuel tanks instead of the rockets. By the way, is their a way I can see how much fuel is left in the external tanks?

 

Nope. Actually in real world CAS operations, rockets and gun are used far more than ATGMs. As for the drop tanks, I have no idea what Russian SOPs are for using tanks on rotary wing aircraft, but I'd be surprised if they were used for anything but ferry flights.

[isoul]

Attacking a convoy from missiles is OK, but going for rocket run is highly risky. You don't know if there is really nothing left like manpad, or hidden something else.

 

...

 

It's my point of view - I'd prefer back to base than doing rocket run, even against trucks ect cause simply I am not sure if there is nothing hidden.

 

In Black Shark - game - you can do funny things and fly for rocket kills. If you die, you will re-spawn.

 

Bob I have to disagree again in some points. :smartass:

 

The ATGMs, as Eddie said, are used only for targets that are either armored (tanks) and hard to take out otherwise or posses a high threat and must be engaged at range. You don't use it for everything within their reach.

 

When you attack a truck convoy for example a pilot would use ATGMs against their AA escort (against an Avenger for example) for sure, and they could use an ATGM against the first truck of the convoy. When the first truck is destroyed, and the rest are forced to stop, there is no need to continue the time consuming ATGM attack. Rocket salvos would do the work fine causing casualties and confusion among the convoy personnel. The cannon can be used next to take out individual targets. Even if there are soldiers with MANPADs dismounting from a truck or APC, a rocket salvo has such psychological effects that can suppress enemy fire and movement better than an ATGM.

 

I also agree with Ethereal. You won't snipe with rockets... the only time I remember single rockets to be fired are when Hinds were hitting apartment buildings to hit infantry hiding inside! Salvos are the key most of the time.

 

EDIT : Forgot to mention that in BS you may RTB to rearm and then go to target area and unload more Vikhrs. In RL however, in most cases, the attack helicopter won't leave just to return later. What is to be done must be done(thats why you send two or more helis) at once. If you return again in 30mins you 'll probably either see no target waiting or you 'll see that target invited some AA to the party. This tactic is viable in the game but not in RL.

Edited June 11, 2010 by isoul

[ZQuickSilverZ]

isoul those rockets are laser guided man, though the laser is obviously being used by a foot soldier. Hardly the same as fireing unguided rockets. You can even see the laser in the clip. I don't disagree with anything you typed but I don't understand the point your trying to make posting that clip. Not to mention its a night time attack so the helo, even though the laser was being used by a footsoldier, probably had some kind of electronic targeting system and not just a floating piper.

[Eddie]

isoul those rockets are laser guided man, though the laser is obviously being used by a foot soldier. Hardly the same as fireing unguided rockets. You can even see the laser in the clip.

 

No they were not laser guided, or guided in any other way. The laser you can see in that clip is a target marking laser a.k.a laser sight. Both the US and UK forces (and most other NATO forces for that matter) use them and have done in both Iraq and Afghan since the begining of each conflict.

 

There are many versions of these lasers, in the British armed forces we use the LLM-01, US forces have the AN/PEQ-4C and many others. They operate in the IR spectrum, but not the same part of the IR spectrum used by laser guided weapons. They are used by ground troops to mark targets for other ground units and CAS aircraft, especially when said targets are in close proximity to friendlies.

 

In fact the lasers used by most weapon guidance systems are not visible through night vision optics. So the aircraft in the clip was employing unguided rockets, and with very similar sighting systems to that in the Ka50.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Eddie
spelling/grammar

[isoul]

THX Eddie for explaining this! You saved me from the effort!

[Boberro]

US has tested new rockets guided by laser, it seems rockets will be much more precise than now and not as expensive as missiles.

[Frederf]

Do the 80mm rockets have an ideal convergence range? I noticed recently that the launchers are toed in to some degree.

 

Whatever the case, rockets don't do jack in DCS. The KOMs require you to physically hit whatever it is which means closing to a range that puts you in danger of being shot back at since anything you would ever use a KOM instead of the cannon is capable of being a threat at rocket range. Even a nice, fat LAV-25 attacked with 25% salvos at 2000m is about a 10% chance of a hit.

 

None of the missions have enough soft targets to warrant an OFP2. Your mission target is never infantry unless you count MANPADSs which require some degree of standoff anyway. It's usually 5 IR SAMs, 4 AAA, 8-16 tanks, and maybe 5 trucks.

 

Paaah, I'm off to the range with unlimited weapons on to practice medium salvo KOM attacks at 2.5 clicks.

[Boberro]

I always use KOMs... they can kill a tank if you kill directly.

 

I am trying to fire 2 max 4 rockets per unit, and it works ;D

[Frederf]

The ballistics of the rocket make even a 20-rocket shot from 2500m a crap shoot in terms of actually hitting the thing. You can watch the rockets splash all around the target all day long but a hit is just plain luck. Even I can hit a single tank with a 10-rocket shot from 1000m or less... but that's the problem.

 

Pk is dramatically dependent on range. Tanks start sniping you out of the sky starting at 2500m and closer. 20-30mm cannon fire at around the same time. What targets are thick enough to warrant a rocket shot instead of a short burst of AP rounds but still won't be suicide to engage?

[ObvilionLost]

What targets are thick enough to warrant a rocket shot instead of a short burst of AP rounds but still won't be suicide to engage?

 

The perfect targets are the ones which can't fire back. Didn't Ka-50's in Chechnya mainly use rockets?

Edited June 11, 2010 by ObvilionLost

[Frederf]

Call me crazy but it feels like OFP2s fly straighter than their KOM brethren which is so the opposite of how I want the accuracy doled out having been asked.

 

Using OFP2 warheads I can believe since its for infantry or other very soft targets. I'm talking about KOMs where if you hit the soldier's picnic basket instead of him directly he's fine.

[isoul]

Pk is dramatically dependent on range. Tanks start sniping you out of the sky starting at 2500m and closer. 20-30mm cannon fire at around the same time. What targets are thick enough to warrant a rocket shot instead of a short burst of AP rounds but still won't be suicide to engage?

 

The criteria of using rockets instead of cannon isn't armor thickness but spread. As Ethereal posted earlier you can't snipe with rockets. Rockets aren't a precision weapon... its artillery. When artillery fires you know that every shot doesn't mean a kill! Single truck=Cannon, truck with soldiers around=Rockets, Encampment=rockets, Jeep that escaped the rocket attack=cannon.

 

Cannon is good against individual targets while rockets are good for targets that are spread out in a small area. Don't forget that in RL even an indirect hit of an S-8KOM rocket produces 30gr(EDIT: initially I mentioned 3gr which is too light) fragments that are capable to penetrate light armor!

 

Now there was a discussion about this fragmentation effect and how well it is modeled in DCS but that's another story and doesn't reduce the effectiveness of rockets in RL.

Edited June 15, 2010 by isoul

[Boberro]

Bob I have to disagree again in some points. :smartass:

 

This is why disscussion was made for :D

 

When you attack a truck convoy for example a pilot would use ATGMs against their AA escort (against an Avenger for example) for sure, and they could use an ATGM against the first truck of the convoy. When the first truck is destroyed, and the rest are forced to stop, there is no need to continue the time consuming ATGM attack. Rocket salvos would do the work fine causing casualties and confusion among the convoy personnel. The cannon can be used next to take out individual targets. Even if there are soldiers with MANPADs dismounting from a truck or APC, a rocket salvo has such psychological effects that can suppress enemy fire and movement better than an ATGM.

 

There is what if.... what if enemy is hidden somewhere where you didn't notice and you fly there cause you think all threat AA enemies have already been killed? Isn't is safer to use gun from - depends of chopper - 2.5-4 km ? In my opinion yes :)

 

I also agree with Ethereal. You won't snipe with rockets... the only time I remember single rockets to be fired are when Hinds were hitting apartment buildings to hit infantry hiding inside! Salvos are the key most of the time.

 

Agree, this is why they're were made for. In game it is funny to use 2-4 rockets per target hehehe.

 

EDIT : Forgot to mention that in BS you may RTB to rearm and then go to target area and unload more Vikhrs. In RL however, in most cases, the attack helicopter won't leave just to return later. What is to be done must be done(thats why you send two or more helis) at once. If you return again in 30mins you 'll probably either see no target waiting or you 'll see that target invited some AA to the party. This tactic is viable in the game but not in RL.

 

That is also true. But two, three or four choppers killing targets by ATGMs and cannon can theorically kill whole column and don't need to come back here - they've got at least 20-30 missiles and about 4000 cannon. It is enough for task.

[Frederf]

The criteria of using rockets instead of cannon isn't armor thickness but spread. As Ethereal posted earlier you can't snipe with rockets. Rockets aren't a precision weapon... its artillery. When artillery fires you know that every shot doesn't mean a kill! Single truck=Cannon, truck with soldiers around=Rockets, Encampment=rockets, Jeep that escaped the rocket attack=cannon.

 

Cannon is good against individual targets while rockets are good for targets that are spread out in a small area. Don't forget that in RL even an indirect hit of an S-8KOM rocket produces 3gr fragments that are capable to penetrate light armor!

 

Now there was a discussion about this fragmentation effect and how well it is modeled in DCS but that's another story and doesn't reduce the effectiveness of rockets in RL.

 

I'm primarily concerned with DCS performance. Real life is only as important insomuch as it suggests actions done in DCS and informs how DCS is made. Assuming one fires a 20-rocket salvo at a single target armored target at 2500m, flying no closer than 2000m at any time... my experience is that on average you get 0.1 hits from that salvo. Firing at a group of 3 or 4 only increases that likelihood to 0.2 or 0.3. It's not helpful to say you can't snipe with rockets because you have to in order to even get maybe 40% probability of 1 kill with an entire rocket load at a safeish range.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

To isoul.

 

Ground-based

U.S. Air Force Joint Terminal Air Controllers and Marine Corps Forward Air Controllers typically employ a lightweight device, such as the AN/PED-1 Lightweight Laser Designator Rangefinder (LLDR), permitting them to designate targets for Close Air Support aircraft flying overhead and in close proximity to friendly forces.. Northrop Grumman's LLDR, using an eye-safe laser wavelength, recognizes targets, finds the range to a target, and fixes target locations for laser-guided, GPS-guided, and conventional munitions. This lightweight, interoperable system uniquely provides range finding and targeting information to other digital battlefield systems.

 

Ok maybee your right. But the comment on the video says this.

 

TheOrdie — October 26, 2007 — NVG view of rockets launched from helo's guided by a laser...

 

Which might lead one to beleive that they were indeed laser guided.

[AlphaOneSix]

Ok maybee your right. But the comment on the video says this.

 

TheOrdie — October 26, 2007 — NVG view of rockets launched from helo's guided by a laser...

 

Which might lead one to beleive that they were indeed laser guided.

 

The laser in that video is probably an AN/PEQ-2. They are not guiding the rockets, they are just pointing at a spot on the ground where they want the helicopter to shoot. The aircrew are wearing goggles so they can see where the laser is pointed, and they just line up and shoot that spot.

[isoul]

...

There is what if.... what if enemy is hidden somewhere where you didn't notice and you fly there cause you think all threat AA enemies have already been killed? Isn't is safer to use gun from - depends of chopper - 2.5-4 km ? In my opinion yes :)

...

 

WWII pilots had a saying :

 

"The fighter you won't see is the fighter that will shoot you down"

 

This goes for MANPADS also (thx Boberro for the correction!)...

 

The foot soldier can be easily hidden almost everywhere (that's his strong point) so the risk is always there. That's why the pilot has to survey the battlefield, that's why there are countermeasures and that's why attack helicopters are being shot down. You can't attack everything with ATGMs the same way you can't attack everything with cruise missiles. Some time you have to get close to engage a target that can't be engaged with ATGMs!

 

The S-8 has similar range to the cannon... the cannon is for hitting individual targets but the rocket has the area damage effect too. That effect can't be replicated by any other weapon of the Ka-50(and most helicopters I know) from that distance.

 

Even in the case of S-8KOM(which releases fragments with enough mass to penetrate light armor), if a salvo of 10 S-8KOMs near-miss a light armored vehicle, the later will become Swiss-cheese!

Edited June 13, 2010 by isoul

[Frederf]

S-8's range is about 1500m effective and the cannon is about 3000m assuming a point target. It's not a trivial difference.

 

In DCS a KOM's lethality radius on some light armor, say, BTR-90 is about 5m or less if not a direct hit. Watching missile flight at minimum acceleration speed I've never seen an indirect hit do anything. Filling a 30m x 30m box with 20 rockets from 2500m around a piece of light armor simply doesn't do anything in the game.

[isoul]

S-8 range is stated to be 1.3-4km. When we talk about effective range of a weapon, according to my little military experience, we are meaning the maximum range a weapon is guaranteed to score a kill. A rocket launched even from 4km can score a kill... its just inaccurate

 

The 1.5km is probably the range you can be effective for sniping kills.

 

In DCS there is a whole discussion about the modeling of area damage(model each fragment separately is near to impossible in the game) of rockets. Many people have expressed the same opinion with you Fred, and I have to say that a 5m near-miss should result in the complete destruction(not necessarily an explosion) of a truck making it Swiss-Cheese.

 

I don't have any arguments to prove that you wrong or right(I haven't ever seen a rocket explosion explosion or its effects from close enough, thank God!) on that. But that is another discussion I think.

[bigdog4215]

so which rockets would be the best to use.

[Boberro]

This goes for MANPADS as well...

 

Also ;]

 

The foot soldier can be easily hidden almost everywhere (that's his strong point) so the risk is always there. That's why the pilot has to survey the battlefield, that's why there are countermeasures and that's why attack helicopters are being shot down. You can't attack everything with ATGMs the same way you can't attack everything with cruise missiles. Some time you have to get close to engage a target that can't be engaged with ATGMs!

 

Yes I realize that killing manpad by example Hellfire which costs $50 000 per one is waste of money. You can't kill everything by ATGMs, it's true. However it is safer than going to direct attack - unfortunetely the price is terrible high. Too high.

 

The S-8 has similar range to the cannon... the cannon is for hitting individual targets but the rocket has the area damage effect too. That effect can't be replicated by any other weapon of the Ka-50(and most helicopters I know) from that distance.

 

I agree S-8 can do large psycho effect. I think I am starting to understand your thinking :) You fire rockets and that might help you to threaten enemy, force him to move or maybe with luck wound him.

 

I think it was pleasure to discuss that matter. I stay with my opinion that rocket run is much more dangerous than use only ATGMs and cannon, but I see and understand your point of view and agree with most of them.

 

S-8 range is stated to be 1.3-4km. When we talk about effective range of a weapon, according to my little military experience, we are meaning the maximum range a weapon is guaranteed to score a kill. A rocket launched even from 4km can score a kill... its just inaccurate

 

Agree, weapon is just innacurate but everything has own borders :)

 

In DCS there is a whole discussion about the modeling of area damage(model each fragment separately is near to impossible in the game) of rockets. Many people have expressed the same opinion with you Fred, and I have to say that a 5m near-miss should result in the complete destruction(not necessarily an explosion) of a truck making it Swiss-Cheese.

 

Don't know if you have ever played LO1, if so you would see there how bad damage model was. Even in LO2 we know it can't be close to reality, but I personally feel it is a lot of better than it has been made before in LO1.

[isoul]

so which rockets would be the best to use.

 

There is no best... only suitable!

Edited June 13, 2010 by isoul

[Eddie]

so which rockets would be the best to use.

 

There is no best... only suitable!

 

Isoul is correct, however I'd like to add that I'm my personal opinion due to the limited fragmentation effect in the sim, the S-8OFPs are more likely to be useful than KOMs. Although they won't be very useful on armour, you're not likely to be using them against armour anyway.

 

Either that or smoke marker rockets, they are great for multiplayer and massively under-used.

[Frederf]

S-8 range is stated to be 1.3-4km. When we talk about effective range of a weapon, according to my little military experience, we are meaning the maximum range a weapon is guaranteed to score a kill.

 

In DCS there is a whole discussion about the modeling of area damage(model each fragment separately is near to impossible in the game) of rockets.

 

Effective range has always been described to me as the range at which the weapon is expected to achieve some % likelihood (50%?) of acceptable destructive effects. This means both accuracy and terminal effects are taken into consideration.

 

M2 .50 cal machine gun for example has an effective range much less than its maximum range because a hit would be so very unlikely. The effective range might be where 20% of the rounds are expected to hit with enough destructive effects. A Hellfire missile would pick some higher threshold (maybe 80%?) since it is a more expensive and low rate of fire weapon. The criteria seem to vary by weapon class but being effective is usually by probabilistic accuracy and damage thresholds. Some accurate weapons might be limited in range by their destructive effects if the destructive effects drop off faster with range than accuracy.

 

As for individual fragment ballistic modelling, sure its costly (CPU wise) but that's not the only way to go about explosion effects. A statistical (read probability) method is far more sensible and gives better results than a hard, boolean kill/no-kill radius. One could get fancy with a non-spherical shape (say, complex theta or phi angle functions) as only 1 check per destructible object needs to be made instead of 1 check per fragment. As such one might get a kill on a target 30m away from a blast while a target 20m away is unscathed.

 

The OM and TsM warheads are absolutely fabulous. I really should practice with them at some point. You're not trying to destroy anything directly with them so the annoying lack of teeth is not an issue.

 

However, people mention killing a $10,000 item with a $50,000 missile as a waste when it is hardly if that prevents the destruction of a $10 million aircraft or vehicle. The true balance of a shot is the cost of the round (times Pk) against the cost of the target plus the cost avoided by eliminating the threat (times some probability).

[isoul]

Effective range of firearms, such as rifles, is a bit different of the effective range of rocket or missile systems.

 

In the case of rockets and missiles we usually refer to maximum range while in the case of firearms we never mention their maximum range.

 

Who cares, for example that M-16 rifle's range is approx 4km? At that range its doubtful that the 5.56 round can score a kill.