R77 & AIM120 "MAGIC" FOV's ???

[4c САВО СРПСКИ]

This subject has been discussed on our squad forum, while our squad mate =4c= Aleksa has giving us attention to a serious problem that he found out.

 

As he does not speak english very good, he asked me to translate the post he wanted to submit here.

 

So here it is:

 

=4c= Aleksa wrote:

 

I will start first with few questions:

 

What is the FOV (Field of View) of ARH (Active Radar Homing) missiles?

 

What is the range of ARH missiles depending on the target aspects (H2H or 6'o'clock)?

 

Does the H2H target have the same signalisation on the ARH missile radar as the 6'o'clock target?

 

 

here below Im giving you the link to a track that I've made where you can clearly see that the AIM120 & R77 have a FOV of much more than 120 degrees, wich imo seems to be crazy.

You can also see how an ARH missile change the route for 90 degrees once it has aquired a target in its radar.

 

What appears to me, is that the ARH missiles have a 180 degrees FOV, horizontal and vertical.... quiet deadly.

also, that means that only MIG29 n' F-15 are the planes to choose for AA combats in LOCK ON, because they can carry ARH missiles, while the SU27 & SU33 can't.

You just have to fire ARH missiles, turn your back and let the missiles with their "magic" FOV do the job, without taking any risks. easy, isn't it?

 

Tell me if it's me that drinked too much of Sljivovitsa and saying nonsense or something needs to be done in order to correct that huge bug.

 

 

here's the link to the tracks I've made :

 

http://www.4c-squad.co.yu/temp/aleksa/fov.zip

[GGTharos]

I recall getting spanked by some Su-27's last night ... maybe you'd like to get in touch with the S77 ad have'em teach you how to use the Sues? ;)

[4c САВО СРПСКИ]

hehe, yes maybe, even though we know each others very well, and sure they know how we can do good with SU's, as we know how good they are on all planes. respect.

 

but, that's not really the issue mate.

 

we're talking about the magic fov problem here...

[S77th-Souless]

I very much agree with aleska that there is an issue with the aim 120. I cannot comment on the r77 as I do not fly the mig enough to make a qualified assesment.

Hopefully it is being looked at

[Guest ThomasDWeiss]

Air to Air combat is now quite different from 1.02 , I noticed that anything fired bellow 10nm has a better chance of a kill.

 

Sljivovitsa ... :D LOL.

[Force_Feedback]

A while ago I read the aim-120 had a 180 degree FOV, in rel life, so that aspect lomac got right, BUT, here it comes...

 

In 1.1 the R-77 AND the aim-120 (though more people whine that the amraam got porked) have some tracking issues, for once the missile doesn't obey the designated target (maybe it has an AI with its own free will, who knows) and goes for the target IT thinks is the best. Secondly, the missile got a personallity problem, it can't deceide which target to choose, it can go after as much as 4 different targets.

And, last and least, is the issue with the active lock, when you illuminate a target with your radar, the missile will first follow the radar reflection (even within pitbull range) and then it will either miss, or deceide to go after some stray n00b AI chopper or some other far away target.

 

I hope they'll correct these "personallity issues" with the r-77 and aim-120, because now the only effective missiles are the r-27er and aim-7.

[Pilgrim]

Mmmm Sljivovitsa. I have some polish Sljivovitsa here :)

[GGTharos]

The problem is that the the 180deg is NOT the FoV. It's th GIMBALS. The difference is /huge/ ... the actual FoV is more like 12 degrees, which has to eb scanned around.

 

I think the problem is that LOMAC ONLY uses FoV for the seeker, isntead fo seekr FoV+Gimballing, which is why you get multiple targets being considered simultaneously instead of the seeker being poitned at the correct target to begin with.

[169th_DedCat]

These exaggerated gimbal limits on the ARH missiles radar have been noted before. Ice posted a thread here about it, complete with tracks demonstrating the issue, a while back for 1.02 under the topic heading of "maddogging".

 

It is a problem for the AIM-120 and R-77 both. I believe I read somewhere in here that the modeling for these missiles is essentially the same, except for the differing rocket motor burn times.

[GGTharos]

I'll repeat again: The fact hat thtere are 180 deg gimbals is NOT a problem. The problem is that the Gimbals aren't represented at gimbals, but as instantaneous FoV, IMHO.

[S77th-Souless]

I'll repeat again: The fact hat thtere are 180 deg gimbals is NOT a problem. The problem is that the Gimbals aren't represented at gimbals, but as instantaneous FoV, IMHO.

Are you sure about that gg? especially the last sentence?

[phantom_fly85]

I don't have FC1.1, hope to soon. However, I do fly Falcon 4.0 Freebird's version of SP4 and in the squad I fly in we have noticed more friendly fire due to the AIM120 losing track with the plane's radar and then going Maddog. Which in turn finds the closest target. When the heat of the battle goes on and pilots are manuevering hard I have made it a habit to enter SST mode to make sure the missle has acquired the target. I don't care if the enemy gets a warning tone from my hard lock, I want to make sure it reaches the designated target.

 

I would suggest in the F-15 to try different scenarios with the AIM120. 1) Long, medium, and short range shots with every radar mode. 2) First try RWS, then TWS, then STT and see if there is a difference. 3) Try different size targets and see if there is a difference there too.

 

I've been a tester for F4UT in the past and we are required to test every possiblity before sending emails to request changes in the code. And then if there is a problem is it replicated by others? I have high hopes for FC 1.1, I hope there isn't a problem with the AIM120. :D

[S77th-Souless]

well phantom i hate to burst your ballon but it has been tested extensively.

First off ive had 120's in stt mode go anywhere but where they were aimed.

secondly tws mode is pretty much useless now with burn through reduced to 10 - 12 miles and with all the active jamming its extremely rare to find someone that allows a tws shot.

[Kula66]

There are definately a number of problems with 120s ... however, I'm sure it'll be patched ... I got shot down last night by someone in a 15 who says (and I don't disbelieve him) that he'd locked a different target - I was just infront of him ... 1.02 is defiantely a better experience in the 15!

[Kusch]

Mmmm Sljivovitsa. I have some polish Sljivovitsa here :)

 

W oryginale po Polsku nazywa sie to Śliwowica ale jest tak samo dobre :D :D :D :D

Na zdrowie :icon_pidu

[phantom_fly85]

Dang Souless, looks like the F-15 is FUBAR! I don't understand why this was released if new bugs keep popping up! Lockon 1.02 was O.K and now the set back.

[Force_Feedback]

Dang Souless, looks like the F-15 is FUBAR! I don't understand why this was released if new bugs keep popping up! Lockon 1.02 was O.K and now the set back.

 

Oh, come on, all you f-15 fanbois do is whine and whine, while not looking at the "other" side, the mig is F.U.B.A.R. as well, and the r-77 is as useful as the r-60, usually even less. Though I have to admit that SARH missiles are preforming well (aim-7, r27r, r33) and get easilly spoofed.

 

Oh, and even the MICA AR preforms the same way as do the r-77 and aim-120, i.e. F.U.B.A.R. (damn, forgot which movie it was, but it was from 1989 or 1988 with Sylvester stallone)

[Guest ruggbutt]

Oh, come on, all you f-15 fanbois do is whine and whine,

 

It's not whining, it's discussing a proven problem w/the only Western fighter available in the sim. I'm sorry you see that as a problem but judging by many of your previous posts you'd rather be an asshat than by posting in a somewhat constructive manner. Maybe you should head over to Frugal's if you're gonna act like a retard.

 

And the MICA isn't available in any of the stock A/C so that point is moot.

[ThirdELTPoznan]

W oryginale po Polsku nazywa sie to Śliwowica ale jest tak samo dobre :D :D :D :D

Na zdrowie :icon_pidu

W rzeczy samej, na zdrowie :icon_pidu

 

;)

[D-Scythe]

I think the main point that nobody can argue against - a point that has been brought up again and again - is that active radar missiles are not modelled as they should be. It's not just an F-15 thing; I don't think anyone who has flown LOMAC in either the F-15C or the MIG-29S can dispute this. Hell, I've been in a dogfight in an A-10 and was shot down by my *escorts* because the AIM-120s locked up *me*.

 

Both of them.

 

I really hope ED is looking into fixing both issues with the AIM-120 and R-77, and problems with TWS, in the next patch, or at least V1.2.

[phantom_fly85]

Who brought in the crazy Poles with them! Never know what to expect in the officer's club.

 

Hey, I like the Mig29 too. R-77 is a deadly, highly maneuverable missle. Very effective in Falcon, because you don't get a RWR warning until it's too late. I prefer the F15 and it makes a good dancing partner.

[Guest ruggbutt]

Hell, I've been in a dogfight in an A-10 and was shot down by my *escorts* because the AIM-120s locked up *me*.

 

Both of them.

 

Same thing here. In fact in some of the tracks I made for my upcoming movie the F16's (AI of course) fired upon some Su25's and ended up smoking their wingmen. This was well w/in 3nm.

[D-Scythe]

Falcon 4's R-77 and AIM-120 were a bit overmodelled. You literally cannot fool them with chaff and jamming at all. On the other hand, LOMAC's AIM-120 and R-77 are as much *undermodelled* as F4's are overmodelled, probably even more. They fall for chaff way too often, and their reacquisition times are so slow that often being spoofed once is enough to dodge the missile. At times, it's getting ridiculous - setting the missile slider to full, I've just shot 4 AIM-120s from well inside the NEZ for only one kill against the AI.

 

Then I get killed by his wingman who fired an R-27ET from 3 miles out - after dodging 5 radar Alamos previously. I haven't seen missiles perform so bad since Vietnam - you almost are forced to dogfight, cause you can't kill BVR.

 

The perfect balance in missile effectiveness would be somewhere between LOMAC and F4 - but more to F4's side. Nothing against LOMAC, but when I go through the trouble of wading through an ocean of enemy missiles to get within optimum firing parameters, I expect my AMRAAM to kill damnit. One for four is ridiculously *sad* from inside the NEZ.

[GGTharos]

Are you sure about that gg? especially the last sentence?

 

 

No. See the IMHO in there? I suspect that this is what is happening, I don't actually know - but by all accounts this is what seems to be happening. Like AI radars, they don't 'scan' a volume of airspace, they simply 'know' everything that happens to be in that volume of airspace. I'm not sure if you can see what I mean ... it's the difference between 'sweep to see contact' and 'contact is inside this bubble so show it'. That is what I presume is happening, which would certianly manifest the type of problems you're seeing now.

[GGTharos]

Oh, come on, all you f-15 fanbois do is whine and whine, while not looking at the "other" side, the mig is F.U.B.A.R. as well, and the r-77 is as useful as the r-60, usually even less. Though I have to admit that SARH missiles are preforming well (aim-7, r27r, r33) and get easilly spoofed.

 

Oh, and even the MICA AR preforms the same way as do the r-77 and aim-120, i.e. F.U.B.A.R. (damn, forgot which movie it was, but it was from 1989 or 1988 with Sylvester stallone)

 

 

And in case you haven't noticed, some of us actually realize that the issue is for all ARHs and not just the 120. Is there any reason at ALL why you can't resist the urge to speak in a derogatory manner instead of injecting something constructive? Haven't you been told your delivery sucks often enough to start figuring it out?