Rules of engagement?

[Omega Oska]

I know there are some real fighter pilots here. I am curious to know what are the usual rules of engagement, in US or in general.

 

We often heard something like "do not fire until fired upon" in Hollywood, is this true? I think this is pretty risky since being shot at in the first place is already close to getting killed.

[D-Scythe]

Well, it's not quite as simple as that. Sure, in some situations, fighter pilots are forced to wait until they are fired upon before they can react, but the whole thing is really more dynamic than that. For example, in war, the airspace is divided into sections and corridors, each with its own set of ROEs (e.g. an area deeper into enemy airspace may have more lenient ROE). Depending on the type of aircraft, the ROE may also be different - F-15C pilots in Desert Storm, for example, did not require AWACs approval to shoot a missile because of its strong on-board electronic ID systems, while other platforms were far more restricted. For example, I know of one instance where a flight of F-14s were denied kills on a Fishbed flight because the closest AWACs could not pick up their targets in all the clutter, and could therefore not clear them.

 

There are other factors: altitude of target (there are "friendly" altitudes), speed, its general behaviour, etc. Because of the complexity of it all, most air-to-air pilots usually try to either gain clearance from the AWACs, or ID their targets visually before they fire, even if they are in danger of being shot back at. It's better to get shot down yourself than to kill a friendly and have to live with that in your conscience, I guess. Sure, it's not the best way to employ a BVR machine like an F-15, but hey, what can you do?

[Omega Oska]

I wonder if europe or the eastern world has the similar ROEs. If yes, then I suppose it's not too big a problem. Are the rules somehow being consulted with the UN of something?

[schimmel]

I wonder if europe or the eastern world has the similar ROEs. If yes, then I suppose it's not too big a problem. Are the rules somehow being consulted with the UN of something?

 

Cmon... the war in Iraq was not approved by the UN. Neither was the no-fly zone in Iraq nor the war on Serbia and so on...

 

The UN is only consulted if it's in one's own interest (I'm talking about every nation here). It's only a chatting platform, which is at least a first step.

[Groove]

Im pretty sure all the Airforces of the world have clear ROEs !

[ThirdELTPoznan]

Im pretty sure all the Airforces of the world have clear ROEs !

It depands on situation. ROE will be different during war and peace.

[Groove]

Zle mnie zrozumiales :)

 

Yes, i meant clear ROEs in all times.

[Pilotasso]

Cmon... the war in Iraq was not approved by the UN. Neither was the no-fly zone in Iraq nor the war on Serbia and so on...

 

In 1991? yes it was. But in 2003 was a different story.

[Pilotasso]

Well, it's not quite as simple as that. Sure, in some situations, fighter pilots are forced to wait until they are fired upon before they can react.

 

I've got several books where its stated US abandoned this methodology since vietnam. BAck then US airforce suffered many casualties by the much smaller N Vietnamese AF because the smaller migs would jump on US fighters and these last, forced to react to an attack only either would be immidiatly shot down or unable to catch the fleeing migs wich used hit and run tactics.

US F-4's were forced to abort their missions as they jetioned their bombs after seeing a mig only to see their prey run away once they set themselves up for counter attack.

 

So current tactic is to wait untill the enemy takes 5 deliberate turns for intercept course (while US aircraft change course to verify this), by then its declared hostile and fired upon, no longer it will have a chance (in theory) to get a shot off before that hapens.

[ThirdELTPoznan]

Zle mnie zrozumiales :)

 

Yes, i meant clear ROEs in all times.

Dobrze cie zrozumialem. Chodzi mi o to ze lotnictwo kazdego kraju ma swoje ROE ale roznia sie one i tak w zaleznosci od sytuacji.

[golfsierra2]

Mc 362

 

This may clarify some questions:

 

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usacsl/divisions/pksoi/Military/Planning/Web%20roe%2001/sld044.htm

 

http://www.smallwars.quantico.usmc.mil/search/Gazette/womack.pdf

 

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0365/is_n1_v39/ai_16888381

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_Engagement

 

http://198.231.69.12/papers/csc30/mds/clancy.htm