How to kill the AI (Su27 vs F15/F16 no ECM)?

[Kenan]

Tried everything but 1 on 1 I just can't manage to shoot down wither F16 or F15 (flying Su27).

 

Whatever I do, regardless at what range I fire and how many missiles I launch (all missiles launch with proper launch authorisation), the AI evades them all and eventually kills me by either pursuing me till the end or simply shooting me down head on.

 

I must say I love the new AI especially the fact that it will stay on your tail till the very end and won't simply quit and turn back like in FC1.

 

BUT, with the new AI, it seems it's a lot more difficult to do anything with 29S or 27. If it turns away, my radar turns itself off and it switches to EOS but by the time I manage to locate the enemy and lock it, it's alreay flying head on and launching another salvo of AIM120Cs.

 

Any useful tips? Besides simply switching to F15C? :D

[GGTharos]

When closer, switch to MPRF on the radar and try to keep a look-up solution.

 

AIM-120Cs are 'you should die more than you should live' weapons, but not undefeatable. Notch them, it works.

 

However, your best bet is to a) get the AI off of excellent (they have superhuman notching ability) and b) try to optimize your attack geometry before and after launch.

 

Head-on fights with AIM-120C equipped aircraft are difficult ... you can win, but it is probably better to try and avoid them, or counter with a superior number of aircraft so you can use some tactics to approach them with.

[Kenan]

a) get the AI off of excellent (they have superhuman notching ability)

 

I noticed this as well. I had like, 5 flights, 5 losses. Each and every time (AI set to excellent) the enemy evades ALL missiles even if they are fired in 15 seconds intervals, say 4-5 ER's..Nada. Not a single hit or damage. It just feels whatever I do, it's a no joy.

 

I know that ED is trying to make this as realistic as possible and it could be possible they they decided to follow up on some real life data (Ethiopia - Eritrea conflict) and dumb down R27's even more.

 

It seems to me, in FC2 it's a real science to achieve anything in BVR against these birds.

 

And speaking of birds (don't wanna open a new topic), what does the "birds" setting do? Do we have actual birds in FC2 now?

[GGTharos]

I noticed this as well. I had like, 5 flights, 5 losses. Each and every time (AI set to excellent) the enemy evades ALL missiles even if they are fired in 15 seconds intervals, say 4-5 ER's..Nada. Not a single hit or damage. It just feels whatever I do, it's a no joy.

 

Yeah, take them down to lowest skill level and then slowly ramp them up.

 

I know that ED is trying to make this as realistic as possible and it could be possible they they decided to follow up on some real life data (Ethiopia - Eritrea conflict) and dumb down R27's even more.

Excellent opponents are simply too good at dodging missiles. You should see them dodge 120C's!

Your missiles are better than those in E-E.

 

It seems to me, in FC2 it's a real science to achieve anything in BVR against these birds.

You do need to be a bit more skilled to deal with an ARH carrying opponent woth SARH - or - stick to ambushes. (Better yet, both! Or use superior numbers to sneak that unknown shooter in and SHLEM the bejesus out of everyone)

 

And speaking of birds (don't wanna open a new topic), what does the "birds" setting do? Do we have actual birds in FC2 now?

You don't have graphical representation of birds, you have a probability of ingesting birds and taking damage when flying low.

100% corresponds to the RL probability that you will suffer a bird-strike during your fights - that probability is pretty small.

[Kenan]

Thanks for the help GG! Nice chatting with you! :D

[GGTharos]

No problem, let me know how it goes :)

[mig29]

Try this...

 

Opponent - F-15C with Aim-120C, Skill "Excellent"

 

Me - SU-27 , R-27ER and R-27ET

 

Fly on after burners. Enemy is head on.

 

At about 25KMs, F-15 will fire up his first missile. Don't panic, just close in your distance while maintaining a radar lock on him and monitor your RWR. When the missile has traveled 50% of its distance, fire your first R-27ER. This will make the F-15 to go defensive and he will start his missile evading techniques. Now switch to R-27ET. When there are 3 bars left in the RWR, fire your R-27ET (If no LA with ET, then fire another ER ) . When there is 1 bar left in the RWR, perform a barrel roll to out-maneuver his AIM-120.

 

One question... Why no ECM ?

[Kenan]

Because ECM feels like being invited to a gun fight blindfolded. Not much of a fan of it.

[Vekkinho]

Because ECM feels like being invited to a gun fight blindfolded. Not much of a fan of it.

 

 

Nicely explained!

[DarkFire]

Instead of the Su-27 try flying the MiG-29S. It carries the R-77 which will even the odds considerably against the F-15 as opposed to the R-27 series of missiles which seem to be somewhat poor performers in FC2. The MiG also turnes incredibly quickly and has stacks of excess energy.

 

Having said that, it's all about how you set up the engagement with regards to approach vector, altitude & orientation. Use your EOS intelligently - try for a rear hemisphere approach. The EOS should find a bandit within ~20km. This, combined with R-27ET or especially R-73 missiles will give you a big advantage over an enemy without an EOS as they'll never know you're there.

 

If you're forced in to a head-on BVR missile fight, fire one off as soon as possible - it'll almost certainly be a wasted shot but may force the enemy on to the defensive before you end up within their WEZ.

 

Lastly, allways F-Pole them!

[Polo]

Lastly, allways F-Pole them!

 

Just to add to this - Once you start to F-Pole Dive. You want your altitude to be under your opponents so that when he beams you your radar isn't looking down and loses lock.

 

I find that this help the pK of my shots in somewhat (anecdotal evidence only) This also applies to all BVR shots from either side (SU27/33/MiG29/F15)

 

Formski

[FLANKERATOR]

Tried everything but 1 on 1 I just can't manage to shoot down wither F16 or F15 (flying Su27).

 

Whatever I do, regardless at what range I fire and how many missiles I launch (all missiles launch with proper launch authorisation), the AI evades them all and eventually kills me by either pursuing me till the end or simply shooting me down head on.

 

I must say I love the new AI especially the fact that it will stay on your tail till the very end and won't simply quit and turn back like in FC1.

 

BUT, with the new AI, it seems it's a lot more difficult to do anything with 29S or 27. If it turns away, my radar turns itself off and it switches to EOS but by the time I manage to locate the enemy and lock it, it's alreay flying head on and launching another salvo of AIM120Cs.

 

Any useful tips? Besides simply switching to F15C? :D

 

1- In the Su, try to gain significant altitude advantage( at least 3000m).

2- Fire at 65/70% Rmax and start immediate F-pole with a shallow dive to get under the bandit's altitude asap by at least 1500m.

3- monitor closely the "I" on the HUD (radar lock) and if it disappears, try to manually switch radar on again. To help the radar maintain lock, best is to manually switch to ILV/MED radar mode as you notice the bandit starting his notch maneuver on the HUD/MFD. Make sure you switch to HI mode gain as the bandit starts becoming hot again. Synchronization between radar mode and target aspect is very important to keep a good lock. If you keep yourself below the bandit and stay active with the radar modes you should at worst loose radar lock for not more than 1 or 2 sec, therefore keeping a high PK for you first ER/EM salvo. With the initial altitude advantage either he will not fire at all geting busy notching your missile early enough, either he will fire on a bad position therefore giving you enough time to guide your missiles until impact.

 

In the MiG29S it's even easier you just make sure your higher than him, cranck, fire at 65-70% Rmax again, cranck again until you get 120's pitbull on your SPO then turn away for safe defense. With couple of R77's fired, your PK should be around 80-90% vs excellent AI F-15/16.

Edited February 7, 2011 by FLANKERATOR

[mig29]

I have been doing this for quite some time now...

 

Scenario:

Me: SU-27 (thrust 95%) with many R-27ER/T

AI: set to excellent, flying F-15C with many AIM-120C/B.

 

Two things to keep in mind:

1) Missiles are way much inexpensive than aircrafts. Feel free to deploy them generously :D

2) F-15 is not an Air superiority fighter for no reason.

 

 

I meet the AI head-on and lock him and equip my R-27ER. He also locks me up. The range of R-27ER is greater than that of the AIM-120C/B. So to scare him away I quickly fire my ER (when we are about 30 KMs apart). This missile will be a waste but will force the AI to take evasive actions. In the process the AI is unable to keep me locked. Now I continuously monitor his vector. When he is about to turn on me again, I fire my 2nd ER and I keep doing this and deny him firing his AIM-120. After deploying 3-4 missiles I see the target has disappeared from my HUD and flames from debris are rising from the ground.

[DarkFire]

Flankerator brings up an interesting point - the R-27EM. As I understand it the -EM is an -ER with a seeker that's better at discriminating the energy reflected from an aircraft from reflections from the sea surface. As I understant it the -EM was developed to be used against low-medium speed sea-skimming anti-ship cruise missiles.

 

Has anyone noticed a difference in how it performs versus aircraft targets as opposed to the R-27R or -ER? Personally I haven't noticed any difference, but then I don't often fire against very low targets, or sea-skimming targets. Does anyone know if the specialities of the -EMa re modelled in FC2?

[DarkFire]

Yeah mostly I fly the Mig but today I was trying to figure out how these Su-27/33 pilots handle things. Plus it's nice to fly another Russian Fighter varient. Thanks for the tips Darkfire and Formski.

 

No problem. The one fairly significant advantage that the Su-27 and -33 have over the MiG is that because the diameter of their radar antena is larger they enjoy a larger detection and lock range than the MiG radar. I would guess, based on my own experiences, that this appears to have been modelled in FC2.

 

The Su-27 also enjoys a pretty good T/W ratio, though at medium to high altitude the F-15 has a massive advantage in climb rate. The Su-33 is more of a missile truck, though the different wing leading edge mechanicals and the foreplanes make it that crucial bit more controllable at very high AOA or at very low speed than most of the other fighters modelled in the game.

 

I must admit I have a big, big soft spot for the Su-33 :joystick: even though it only has a T/W ratio of something around 0.82 :(

[GGTharos]

You should be able to target lower flying aircraft with the EM in FC2. The EM was no produced in RL.

 

Flankerator brings up an interesting point - the R-27EM. As I understand it the -EM is an -ER with a seeker that's better at discriminating the energy reflected from an aircraft from reflections from the sea surface. As I understant it the -EM was developed to be used against low-medium speed sea-skimming anti-ship cruise missiles.

 

Has anyone noticed a difference in how it performs versus aircraft targets as opposed to the R-27R or -ER? Personally I haven't noticed any difference, but then I don't often fire against very low targets, or sea-skimming targets. Does anyone know if the specialities of the -EMa re modelled in FC2?

[Pilotasso]

Tried everything but 1 on 1 I just can't manage to shoot down wither F16 or F15 (flying Su27).

 

Whatever I do, regardless at what range I fire and how many missiles I launch (all missiles launch with proper launch authorisation), the AI evades them all and eventually kills me by either pursuing me till the end or simply shooting me down head on.

 

I must say I love the new AI especially the fact that it will stay on your tail till the very end and won't simply quit and turn back like in FC1.

 

BUT, with the new AI, it seems it's a lot more difficult to do anything with 29S or 27. If it turns away, my radar turns itself off and it switches to EOS but by the time I manage to locate the enemy and lock it, it's alreay flying head on and launching another salvo of AIM120Cs.

 

Any useful tips? Besides simply switching to F15C? :D

 

It seems to me you have yet to explore some radar modes. Like PRF settings. Even if you switched to F-15 your problems would be the same if you dont take advantage of everything your radar modes can give you. :)

 

You have to get back into multiplayer, no more all-knowing-repetitive and boring AI's.

[RIPTIDE]

Tried everything but 1 on 1 I just can't manage to shoot down wither F16 or F15 (flying Su27).

 

Whatever I do, regardless at what range I fire and how many missiles I launch (all missiles launch with proper launch authorisation), the AI evades them all and eventually kills me by either pursuing me till the end or simply shooting me down head on.

 

I must say I love the new AI especially the fact that it will stay on your tail till the very end and won't simply quit and turn back like in FC1.

 

BUT, with the new AI, it seems it's a lot more difficult to do anything with 29S or 27. If it turns away, my radar turns itself off and it switches to EOS but by the time I manage to locate the enemy and lock it, it's alreay flying head on and launching another salvo of AIM120Cs.

 

Any useful tips? Besides simply switching to F15C? :D

Here's another way... fly away from him, assuming you already allow yourself a decent range in the first place. When he catches up to you about 40km, he should be pushing 1400+kph. Lock him near gimble when you turn around and LA a ER shot off aspect. Make sure you drag him to 25k ft. or higher even. Then drop your nose and gimble the crap out of him. He can't avoid a ER shot at that speed, at that range. Dead in seconds and his inevitable 120 shot is waste. :) Make sure you keep an eye for the black smoke... and just pull away nicely form the 120. One shot. One kill.

Edited February 8, 2011 by RIPTIDE

[Pilotasso]

hmmm, will that work at all??? ^^^^ :D

[RIPTIDE]

Oh, Ye of little faith...

 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/600721/Tacview-20110208-174946.txt.acmi

 

 

1x 27 Player. 4x27ER.2xET,2x73 100 fuel 100% gun

 

1x 15 Excellent 8 x 120C, 100 Fuel 100%gun/chaff/flares.

 

In fact its the easiest way of them all.

Edited February 8, 2011 by RIPTIDE

[asparagin]

he should be pushing 1400+kph

 

:lol: Riptide has studied the psychology of the AI.

[mig29]

One more thing I noticed today and may be you know this already. One AIM-120 was heading towards me head on. I switched to vertical scan mode and armed my R-73. And then I waited. When the AIM-120 was 2.5 KMs away from me, the vertical scan automatically locked the AIM-120. I fired my R-73 at it but it missed. May be I will get lucky next time.

[Boberro]

Yup, sometimes in close head to head you know you have no chance to escape, so only vertical scan is hope.... better trying to kill missile than do nothing :D At least you have chance, if enemy didn't fire more than 1.

[GGTharos]

I guess if you insist on using an unrealistic defense... although it may work in FC2, in RL you wouldn't be able to target an AAM with an R-73 and expect any reasonable chance of a hit. The target is too small and too fast to hit directly, and the same goes for the fuze.

[titanium]

I have shot down quite a few aam. All of them by accident. Usually this happens when I am trying to launch at the opp fighter. Just as I fire off my missile, an incoming missile would cause my missile to proxy detonate right in front of my face. Usually I escape unscathed from the incident.

 

I have a track saved up somewhere. Will post it later.

 

Edit: track added

 

If two missiles, by chance, end up passing each other at very close distance would the proximity fuses detonate in real life?

missile shoot down.trk

Edited February 8, 2011 by titanium