First weekend impressions with the TM WARTHOG

[coolts]

I really wish i had a set of G940 & X65's to compare against the Hog. Then i would have a broader base of comparison. BeachAv8r’s future articles in SimHQ with road-tests of the main HOTAS rivals from the viewpoint of a RL pilot should be very illuminating in that regard.

 

In my little review I tried not to comment on anything I had no direct experience of, which isn’t much in the HOTAS field to be honest as apart from some basic joysticks, the stock Cougar is all I’ve had, and that took £30 worth of new switches, etc. as when I got it 2nd hand it looked like it had been under the sea for 2 years! It was in a wretched state and smelt of “damp garage”. After a bit of a refurb and re-grease though, it served me well. If any other stick that I have had experience of had suffered that much abuse, I doubt I would have been able to resurrect it.

 

TBH that ability for TM products to be taken apart by the jobbing mechanic with a bit of soldering know-how and modded, etc is strength to be celebrated. How many Dell monitors are moddeed? How many mice?

 

In my black and white world you should be able to gauge the quality of a product with the senses. The hog looks and feels the part. It breeds confidence in the budding A-10 pilot.

 

The competitors are the G940 & X65 in that price range. The ED factor helps TM a lot in this instance. If ED were releasing DCS :Fulcrum for instance, would I have bought a hog stick? That’s another question and in that regard it would be hard to criticize the hog stick for being a replica, as after all, it’s a HOTAS with lots of axis and switches. Only the lack of rotaries could be grounds for grumbling, but I hardly used them on my Cougar TBH.

 

Once the TARGET software is patched, I will start delving in to macros and seeing how it matches up against Foxy.

 

I can bet that 90% of the people with unmodded cougars don't fly very hard also. Flying a unmodded cougar in a dogfight is next to impossible or very hard. It would probably be better to use your keyboard instead. Yes they might have sold 40,000 of them, but how many were put in storage soon after the spiking and other problems arose? I'm not bashing the cougar, I have one now. But how many people have switched over from the cougar?

 

I totally disagree. As for "better use a keyboard", that’s one of the plain most ridiculous statements I’ve heard this week. My badly mistreated Cougar that I refurbed had the same pots, and they were fine. It’s all down to personal experience.

 

My unmodded Cougar opened my eyes to how a Proper HOTAS could improve my enjoyment of flying.

 

There seems to be a fashion of the vociferous minority condemning the Cougar over the broadly content silent majority.

 

Democracy favours the loud until its voting time, then the pundits are shocked. ;)

Edited November 3, 2010 by coolts

[Cali]

I flew an unmodded cougar into dogfights ... worked okay. The Warthog is much, much better in terms of desired accuracy both in g and pipper control. You really have to have two very equal individuals to see the difference though.

 

Did you have to use your other hand to help :megalol:

 

All jokes aside, I have flown an unmodded cougar in a dogfight also. After that I told myself I need to mod it......especially coming from CH...which is working the same after several years of use, unmodded. So back to the story, I ended up selling it and missed it. A few years after that I bought another on on sale for $150 at Fry's. I still have it and plan on modding it, once I get it work in Windows 7 (I think I need to reformat) I'm lazy some times and haven't reformatted yet. Don't want to install all this crap on again, but I will shortly.

[Callsign.Vega]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

 

I bought a new Cougar a year ago for $199. The Warthog is now $500+ in the US. That is some inflation. :rolleyes:

[Slammin]

I am so skeptical when I hear claims that the Hog stick feels 100% better than a U2-NXT Cougar. I think the reason is that even though the HOG sounds like it requires even pressure all-around, it still also sounds like it may require more force to move from center than it does to move in anyplace after center. This even pressure is in contrast with the U2-NXT in that the Cougar takes less pressure to move from center, but progressively more pressure the farther away from center you go. This was actually touted as a positive attribute, and I have to say, without feeling a Hog, I think the U2-NXT is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

With an unmodded Cougar, it takes A LOT to move from center and the stick really wants to get back to center, and the 'bump' when it gets to center can be very distracting. Does the Hog have any kind of 'bump' as it gets back to center? Actually, I can tell from the video that it does, but is it distracting in any way?

[Cali]

I totally disagree. As for "better use a keyboard", that’s one of the plain most ridiculous statements I’ve heard this week. My badly mistreated Cougar that I refurbed had the same pots, and they were fine. It’s all down to personal experience.

 

My unmodded Cougar opened my eyes to how a Proper HOTAS could improve my enjoyment of flying.

 

There seems to be a fashion of the vociferous minority condemning the Cougar over the broadly content silent majority.

 

Democracy favours the loud until its voting time, then the pundits are shocked. ;)

 

I am so skeptical when I hear claims that the Hog stick feels 100% better than a U2-NXT Cougar. I think the reason is that even though the HOG sounds like it requires even pressure all-around, it still also sounds like it may require more force to move from center than it does to move in anyplace after center. This even pressure is in contrast with the U2-NXT in that the Cougar takes less pressure to move from center, but progressively more pressure the farther away from center you go. This was actually touted as a positive attribute, and I have to say, without feeling a Hog, I think the U2-NXT is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

With an unmodded Cougar, it takes A LOT to move from center and the stick really wants to get back to center, and the 'bump' when it gets to center can be very distracting. Does the Hog have any kind of 'bump' as it gets back to center? Actually, I can tell from the video that it does, but is it distracting in any way?

 

He knows how a unmodded cougar is, so that makes 2 of us. I'm not bashing the cougar. My post is how I felt/feel a stock cougar is, some disagree and think it is fine. For the type of flying I do...it is not fine, it's crap! If I flew strike aircraft only, then a stock cougar "might" work just fine for me. I fly everything high/low and fast/slow, so somethings I find myself in a dogfight low in the mountains. My CH would do just fine whereas my cougar would get me killed due to the massive spring force.

 

But remember this is my thoughts on the stock cougar.

[GGTharos]

Did you have to use your other hand to help :megalol:

 

No, but damnit, I should have rotated :D *falls to the right*

 

All jokes aside, I have flown an unmodded cougar in a dogfight also. After that I told myself I need to mod it......especially coming from CH...which is working the same after several years of use, unmodded. So back to the story, I ended up selling it and missed it. A few years after that I bought another on on sale for $150 at Fry's. I still have it and plan on modding it, once I get it work in Windows 7 (I think I need to reformat) I'm lazy some times and haven't reformatted yet. Don't want to install all this crap on again, but I will shortly.

 

I didn't mind the spring force, though it can definitely get tiring and there might be problems with g and pipper control because of it. Also, spiky pots would cause even more hardship with that same control. Leaving center play issues aside, a modded cougar would overcome all of those - but hope is not lost if you're flying un-modded.

 

On the other hand, the TM:W just kicks ass ... very accurate in all axii and that just plain rocks. Center play is pretty much non-existent, I don't think I even bothered looking at dead zones 'cause I don't think I really need any. It is a huge, huge difference.

[Teej]

Then i would have a broader base of comparison. BeachAv8r’s future articles in SimHQ with road-tests of the main HOTAS rivals from the viewpoint of a RL pilot should be very illuminating in that regard.

 

I know some are a bit...hesitant...to take what we as the VTB say at face value, given our sponsorship status. But if I may remind you...No review, professional or casual, has varied substantially from what we've been saying since E3. You wanted 'neutral' opinions, and that's fine - I get that. I'd feel the same way in your shoes....even though we're not paid promoters. But clearly we haven't misinformed.

 

Consider also among our team is 2 full time professional airline pilots, one CFII building hours, and most, if not all, of the rest of us have had control of a real plane at some point, including (but not limited to) Gliders, Mooneys, Cessnas and the beloved F-16.

 

Whack and Lawndart have both mentioned in our team conversations how much the throttle and the panel switches feel like the controls in their aircraft.

 

RL pilot enough for ya? :D

Edited November 6, 2010 by Teej

[coolts]

I am so skeptical when I hear claims that the Hog stick feels 100% better than a U2-NXT Cougar. I think the reason is that even though the HOG sounds like it requires even pressure all-around, it still also sounds like it may require more force to move from center than it does to move in anyplace after center. This even pressure is in contrast with the U2-NXT in that the Cougar takes less pressure to move from center, but progressively more pressure the farther away from center you go. This was actually touted as a positive attribute, and I have to say, without feeling a Hog, I think the U2-NXT is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

With an unmodded Cougar, it takes A LOT to move from center and the stick really wants to get back to center, and the 'bump' when it gets to center can be very distracting. Does the Hog have any kind of 'bump' as it gets back to center? Actually, I can tell from the video that it does, but is it distracting in any way?

 

The laws of physics would seem to dictate that there will be a reduction in the force required to keep an object moving than that required to start the movement as long as the forces of gravity and friction are present. (smartass mode) :) but I know what you mean, as the laws of physics weren't written with a giant centering spring in mind! The Cougar spring was a distraction and made accurate flying difficult. I can't comment on modded Cougars but i can say the Hog stick isn't like that. Within one day i was accurately tank plinking and not just spraying like a champagne bottle as i did in the Cougar.

 

• There’s no appreciable increase in force required the more you move as there was in the Cougar.
  
• No noticeable bump at centre. It just stops when you let go. It centres yes, but its not like driving over a pothole or anything.
  
• Not distracting at all.
  

Edited November 3, 2010 by coolts

[GGTharos]

Actually in most real jets that do not use FBW (and perhaps in some that do), there is an increasing amoutn of force required to pull the stick as you increase distance from center.

 

In an F-16, 35 or 22 there's no force AFAIK ;)

[Teej]

I am so skeptical when I hear claims that the Hog stick feels 100% better than a U2-NXT Cougar. I think the reason is that even though the HOG sounds like it requires even pressure all-around, it still also sounds like it may require more force to move from center than it does to move in anyplace after center. This even pressure is in contrast with the U2-NXT in that the Cougar takes less pressure to move from center, but progressively more pressure the farther away from center you go. This was actually touted as a positive attribute, and I have to say, without feeling a Hog, I think the U2-NXT is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

With an unmodded Cougar, it takes A LOT to move from center and the stick really wants to get back to center, and the 'bump' when it gets to center can be very distracting. Does the Hog have any kind of 'bump' as it gets back to center? Actually, I can tell from the video that it does, but is it distracting in any way?

 

 

It's hard to put into words.

 

I have a stock cougar here with guts that are indistinguishable from new. I personally don't think the Cougar's force required to pull off center is that high. The problem I have with a stock Cougar is the pull changes quite a bit, and rises significantly and somewhat unpredictably, especially as the locking ring compresses the boot.

 

The force required to pull the Warthog off center is only slightly less than the Cougar in my subjective opinion (I don't have a tension scale with a low enough deflection weight to compare objectively). The difference is the smooth consistent pull after that.

 

If you rotate their stick bases so that instead of being parallel to the ground as normal, they are perpendicular to the ground (ie with the stick grip horizontal) they will both come slightly off center due to their weight. The "angle of the dangle" ( grin ) will be similar, but the Warthog will give a little bit more (less tension). The difference is what happens after that...

 

From that position, pull each stick "down" to the stops and let go.

 

The Cougar's stick will snap back to center with a 'thunk', then give a little bit to hang slightly, as above.

 

Do the same with the Warthog and the stick will not even lift off max deflection, let alone snap to center.

 

As to the centering bump...yes, there is a centering bump, but only one, at the stick's absolute "zero input" dead center (rather than any time you cross an axis line). I think you will find it greatly reduced over the center bump on the Cougar.

[Cali]

I know some are a bit...hesitant...to take what we as the VTB say at face value, given our sponsorship status. But if I may remind you...No review, professional or casual, has varied substantially from what we've been saying since E3. You wanted 'neutral' opinions, and that's fine - I get that. I'd feel the same way in your shoes....even though we're not paid promoters. But clearly we haven't misinformed.

 

Consider also among our team is 2 full time professional airline pilots, one CFII building hours, and most, if not all, of the restl of us have had control of a real plane at some point, including (but not limited to) Gliders, Mooneys, Cessnas and the beloved F-16.

 

Whack and Lawndart have both mentioned in our team conversations how much the throttle and the panel switches feel like the controls in their aircraft.

 

RL pilot enough for ya? :D

 

 

Maintainers, get to push buttons around also :D I don't buy things when they first come out, I give it some time. That way 1. I get more reviews on it 2. the price may come down (depending on what it is) 3. bugs get worked out.

[Teej]

Actually in most real jets that do not use FBW (and perhaps in some that do), there is an increasing amoutn of force required to pull the stick as you increase distance from center.

 

In an F-16, 35 or 22 there's no force AFAIK ;)

 

I know some FBW, "power assist" aircraft due require increasing pressure. I'm virtually positive the Mudhen works like that. It only makes sense, both for them and for us. The Warthog does require increasing tension (you're compressing a spring after all - it will always take more force to compress a spring further - springs have "rates" - number of pounds per inch of compression).

 

The nice big helical spring, however, is not being fatigued and you're not having semi-random lockring/boot interference and the result is a consistent pull.

[Cali]

Actually in most real jets that do not use FBW (and perhaps in some that do), there is an increasing amoutn of force required to pull the stick as you increase distance from center.

 

In an F-16, 35 or 22 there's no force AFAIK ;)

 

No force in the 16 at all.

[GGTharos]

I totally agree with you; for me the new construction has made a huge difference in control, as I mentioned. The other thing I was worried about is eventual sping fatigue and thus having the stick potentially lean in one direction or another, but so far it just centers right back, no problem. Frankly if I had to replace this srping once every 5 years to keep it in this state I wouldn't be particularly bothered.

[Teej]

No force in the 16 at all.

 

 

....wat?

 

You don't "increase force to deflect"...but you absolutely "increase force" to command different roll/pull rates.

 

Up to around 20# max pull as I recall. And different in every direction to account for the ergonomic difference in strength.

[Teej]

I totally agree with you; for me the new construction has made a huge difference in control, as I mentioned. The other thing I was worried about is eventual sping fatigue and thus having the stick potentially lean in one direction or another, but so far it just centers right back, no problem. Frankly if I had to replace this srping once every 5 years to keep it in this state I wouldn't be particularly bothered.

 

Given the size of the spring, I don't think it's going to fatigue measurably (let alone anything you could feel) in 5 years of daily use. Just a guess. And if it does...the stick won't lean - the tension is applied uniformly around the stick, not like there's separate springs for each axis.

[GGTharos]

Cool, good to know - thanks! :)

 

Looks lime TM put some through into this.

[Cali]

....wat?

 

You don't "increase force to deflect"...but you absolutely "increase force" to command different roll/pull rates.

 

Up to around 20# max pull as I recall. And different in every direction to account for the ergonomic difference in strength.

 

 

I thought he was talking about as in moving the stick. The F-16 stick to me was very easy to move and fly with. I may not have even realized what I was doing, hence to me it felt like nothing. maybe in non-FBW jets it feels different, I wouldn't know that, since I have never been in one of them. The 16 feels natural, like it's apart of you and knows what your thinking. Hope that is better and clears up what I said.

[Slammin]

My Hog has been on order since the 23rd, so it would actually take a serious horror story to make me reconsider, but I must tip my hat to you guys for providing the detailed answers I've had in the back of my head.

 

S!

[kaiserb_uk]

I totally agree with you; for me the new construction has made a huge difference in control, as I mentioned. The other thing I was worried about is eventual sping fatigue and thus having the stick potentially lean in one direction or another, but so far it just centers right back, no problem. Frankly if I had to replace this srping once every 5 years to keep it in this state I wouldn't be particularly bothered.

 

There's a reason for that - I've had it in pieces as I couldn't work out what was actually going on internally from the SimHQ review pics - the spring gets compressed uniformly by a plastic platform which can only move up/down (i.e. there's no internal 'tilting' of the spring). All that changes is the contact point of the lever (the ball joint) on this platform.

 

One effect of this is that having compressed the spring a certain amount by say, pulling the stick back, there's no actual spring resistance to circular movement. For me, I find this creates some slightly odd forces when I'm moving the stick around, but that's because I'm coming from a NXT modded Cougar which was completely smooth in all directions (rubber boot excepted). I'm sure I'll adjust to it soon enough, and the ABSOLUTE precision of the sensor output and COMPLETE lack of play more than makes up for it.