Navigation, Can it be simplified for beginners?

[dnme]

Back again to annoy all the experts

 

I have started reading the Navigation sections of the manual and I am struggling to understand it.

 

Is it possible to get the principles of it explained in a much simpler form?

 

Is it possible to approach navigation from a task based pov?

 

I now realise that the a-10 does not follow waypoints automatically in auto pilot. Therefore what's the point of creating waypoints at all if you have to fly them manually anyway?

 

I'm very sorry for these (what must be annoying) questions. I guess I need to be able to simplify the topic and take it one step at a time and mot importantly - from a task based perspective.

 

What do I mean by task based?

I mean starting off crating a simple plan, the premise being that for this exercise, we might use the EGI for nav. Then an explanation of the egi, then the flight itself. In other words, learning by example and keeping the jargon and acronyms to a minimum for beginners.

[sobek]

I now realise that the a-10 does not follow waypoints automatically in auto pilot. Therefore what's the point of creating waypoints at all if you have to fly them manually anyway?

 

Knowing at a glance where the feck you are and where you should be? :)

 

The tasking order often asks for certain flights to be at a certain point in space at a precise point in time, the waypoints are indespensable tools to achieve this, e.g.

[dnme]

Knowing at a glance where the feck you are and where you should be? :)

 

The tasking order often asks for certain flights to be at a certain point in space at a precise point in time, the waypoints are indespensable tools to achieve this, e.g.

 

why not just use gps or compass?

 

also, if AP does not follow waypoints, why is there Path Hdg in AP at all? what path does it follow?

[KillaALF]

Erm, the navigation suite makes use of GPS to determine your exact location. Ever used a navigation system in a car? Same principle, only your waypoints as such are when the system tells you to take a left here, go right there, etc. until you have arrived at your destination.

[dnme]

Erm, the navigation suite makes use of GPS to determine your exact location. Ever used a navigation system in a car? Same principle, only your waypoints as such are when the system tells you to take a left here, go right there, etc. until you have arrived at your destination.

 

Yeah I get that. I'm wondering if anyone has any good simplified navigation tutorials I might fly or watch? I'm finding the manual impossible to follow.

[sobek]

Yeah I get that. I'm wondering if anyone has any good simplified navigation tutorials I might fly or watch? I'm finding the manual impossible to follow.

 

Have you done the training mission?

[Frederf]

The EGI-based navigation from the HUD is pretty simple to use. All the other systems: ADF, TACAN, ILS, HARS, TISL and their associated displays are all secondary and older navigation systems.

 

You rotate through the current waypoint pool with the UFC steerpoint rocker and its position appears as a box on the HUD. Place the TVV on the box and you'll travel right to it every time.

[GGTharos]

I now realise that the a-10 does not follow waypoints automatically in auto pilot. Therefore what's the point of creating waypoints at all if you have to fly them manually anyway?

 

Try navigating in zero visibility while not flying at minimum safe altitude and you'll get one of the reasons why.

What about knowing where your rende-vous is, the time it will take you to get there, how to coordinate with other flights so everyone arrives at precise time intervals etc.

 

I'm very sorry for these (what must be annoying) questions. I guess I need to be able to simplify the topic and take it one step at a time and mot importantly - from a task based perspective.

 

What do I mean by task based?

I mean starting off crating a simple plan, the premise being that for this exercise, we might use the EGI for nav. Then an explanation of the egi, then the flight itself. In other words, learning by example and keeping the jargon and acronyms to a minimum for beginners.

 

You want to create a flight plan outside of the flight editor?

[dnme]

Yea, I guess I'm not wording my question very well.

 

I started by reading the chapter "Navigation", Manual p.441, After reading it I understand very little. It seems to take me through the panels and switches without a context.

 

I am going to watch the video tutorial again now and try and get my head around this.

[Weaponz248]

Waypoints are also a good tool to keep you out of trouble. They can be used to steer you around those pesky SAM sites.....also good way to point a target out

[dnme]

so just to get my head around the basics...

 

We fly way/steer points manually. If we want to be on the correct course to a waypoint, we use the CDI on the HSI but have to dial in the heading manually on the HSI. Therefore, would it be fair to say that navigation in the A-10c is not overly sophisticated?

 

Also, someone mentions above that waypoints can be good tools to keep you out of trouble (sams etc). But if you have to fly them manually - is it not the case that all your attention is now focused on turning, speed, alt etc as you have to fly the waypoints manually ?? How are you meant to defend against sams if you are concentrating on flying/navigating?

[Weaponz248]

IRC way points are preprogrammed and all you need to do is select the next one. So in the mission planner you can set them to avoid those pesky SAMs

[Frederf]

Yes the navigation instrumentation (except the 3 LAAP modes) in the A-10C is all advisory which requires the pilot to interpret the information and then fly as directed. The autopilot is not terribly sophisticated but the navigation instruments definitely are.

 

Flying directly to the steerpoint (steerpoint = currently selected waypoint) is easy. Flying on course is a little tougher. This is where it matters things like TO-TO, TO-FROM modes; CRS knob; XTrack Error; etc.

 

It sounds like you're well into homing navigation and beginning course-line navigation. One of easiest ways to start that is simply to fly the TAD page flight plan lines between waypoints. Bragging rights might not be that great but it's surprisingly fast and accurate.

 

As for how the real pilots manage, familiarity. After 3-5 years of training and 3 hours on the ground in planning for every 1 in the air, there are no surprises going on.

[GGTharos]

The context you are looking for is really very simple.

 

You want to fly from point A to point B.

A and B can both be waypoints, or, A might be your current location, depending on the type of navigation you want to do.

 

But really, anything you think of in navigation is nothing more than geometry - A, B, and how you get from A to B. Is there a designated course? Will you fly it? If this is the case, just set up your instruments appropriately for the task, and the manual tells you what you need to know to set them up.

 

You might find it a chore now, but in time you will start finding these things very useful.

 

so just to get my head around the basics...

 

We fly way/steer points manually. If we want to be on the correct course to a waypoint, we use the CDI on the HSI but have to dial in the heading manually on the HSI. Therefore, would it be fair to say that navigation in the A-10c is not overly sophisticated?

 

Also, someone mentions above that waypoints can be good tools to keep you out of trouble (sams etc). But if you have to fly them manually - is it not the case that all your attention is now focused on turning, speed, alt etc as you have to fly the waypoints manually ?? How are you meant to defend against sams if you are concentrating on flying/navigating?

[dnme]

Yeah OK

Right now I have a mission created with 7 way points. Take off, circle round and land. I find that I spend all my time trying to keep the TVV on the waypoint piper on the HUD. Constantly correcting and trimming before it's time to fly the next waypoint.

 

I can't imagine how pilots manage to do other stuff in the cockpit such as comms, weapons etc. I know I can set autopilot when I home in on a waypoint but then I have to keep watching the hud or tad to see when I hit the current steerpoint, I then have to take over and steer / get alt right etc. It just all feels very wrong, and awkward, and edgy.

 

I have posted another thread asking if anyone might create a vid or two showing beginners a brief intro to nav. It would be very helpful not least cos it would show us where the norms are and the right way to do stuff such as turns, monitoring, figuring out, distance, time, headings, courses etc

[GGTharos]

You set the autopilot to the desired parameters, and then you do other stuff in the cockpit. Yeah, you have to glance at your HUD to see when you hit the next WP. You should be scanning all your instruments ALL the time anyway, autopilot or no autopilot. If you have an issue where WP's are too closely spaced, that's a mission issue and you might simply look for some other way of tackling that particular workload.

[kylania]

I then have to take over and steer / get alt right etc. It just all feels very wrong, and awkward, and edgy.

 

I was like that with trim until very recently. I could never get the hang of it, I was always constantly overcorrecting and stuff. But over time I've got the feel for it, and I don't try to trim exactly anymore. Now it's a much smoother process for me and I'm able to quickly trim to how I want it without worrying about being perfect.

 

Same thing with following waypoints. Though to be honest, the Beta3 autopilot bugs have me simply trimming more often than using AP. :) Can't wait till Beta4 fixes that, tired of shaking myself to death on AP.

[dnme]

I was like that with trim until very recently. I could never get the hang of it, I was always constantly overcorrecting and stuff. But over time I've got the feel for it, and I don't try to trim exactly anymore. Now it's a much smoother process for me and I'm able to quickly trim to how I want it without worrying about being perfect.

 

Same thing with following waypoints. Though to be honest, the Beta3 autopilot bugs have me simply trimming more often than using AP. :) Can't wait till Beta4 fixes that, tired of shaking myself to death on AP.

 

What stick are you using kylania?

[alphie]

Hi new user.

 

I understand what the OP is trying to say. I have always had problems with ILS and TACAN. You guys may think its "old hat" since you've been simming or flying for real since the stone age. But, I have never been able to figure out the indicators, when to use what, etc.

 

I've read every article I can come across on the subject. I know the theory quite well and I know how it works. But when your in the cockpit at zero vis, putting it all in practice and knowing when to line up this with that, can be quite daunting.

 

I dont want a dumbed down navigation system, quite the opposite, I want the real deal. But, I want to be comfortable using the real deal and have confidence that I am doing it right. A good video on setting up ILS/TACAN, what your guages and indicators should look like and judging your situation in low vis conditions with said equipment would be a Godsend to us newer virtual pilots.

 

Cheers,

alphie

 

P.S. The closest I ever got to figuring it out was the Falcon 4.0 manual, but I still wouldnt trust myself to use instrument only landing in that sim, either I would miss some basic fundamental or read something completely wrong and wind up in a ditch, nose-in @500 ft from the runway.

Edited November 28, 2010 by alphie

[kylania]

What stick are you using kylania?

 

Thrustmaster Warthog

[LiveBait]

Hi new user.

 

I understand what the OP is trying to say. I have always had problems with ILS and TACAN. You guys may think its "old hat" since you've been simming or flying for real since the stone age. But, I have never been able to figure out the indicators, when to use what, etc.

 

I've read every article I can come across on the subject. I know the theory quite well and I know how it works. But when your in the cockpit at zero vis, putting it all in practice and knowing when to line up this with that, can be quite daunting.

 

I dont want a dumbed down navigation system, quite the opposite, I want the real deal. But, I want to be comfortable using the real deal and have confidence that I am doing it right. A good video on setting up ILS/TACAN, what your guages and indicators should look like and judging your situation in low vis conditions with said equipment would be a Godsend to us newer virtual pilots.

 

Cheers,

alphie

 

P.S. The closest I ever got to figuring it out was the Falcon 4.0 manual, but I still wouldnt trust myself to use instrument only landing in that sim, either I would miss some basic fundamental or read something completely wrong and wind up in a ditch, nose-in @500 ft from the runway.

 

+1

[Fish]

................I can't imagine how pilots manage to do other stuff in the cockpit such as comms, weapons etc.

 

Thats why the standard to get into fighter pilot academy is so high and why pilots train so much. So all those process and procedures become habitual, and second nature.

[TeeSquar]

I just make sure I have the correct waypoint selected, steer towards it and get it centered in the HUD, make sure I'm at the altitude I want then engage the ALT/HDG mode of the autopilot. Bingo, you can now take care of other cockpit functions without nursing the stick. If all else fails, you can pause or active pause.

 

I have not put in too much flight time yet, but what I usually do is repeat the tutorials more than a few times to get a complete understanding of the functions required.