Does the F-15 have an advantage in BVR firing the aim-120?

[fitness88]

I understand you can only designate elevation using EOS. What is the value in showing elevation movement using the notch marks on the left of the HDD if the notch marks don't indicate anything specific with relationship to the movement of the EOS. As an example, 1 notch could = 5 degrees line of sight.

Referring to EOS I just found this bit of info from the manual P.38:

The pitch elevation of the scan pattern is displayed at the HUD center-right.

 

Also you mentioned about seeing the heat signals on the HUD. Are these the small [dotted] lines I see move up and down under the pitch ladder?

 

The pitch elevation of the scan pattern is displayed at the HUD center-right.

After testing, this does not seem to be modelled.

 

Not sure what you mean by seeing the heat signals

[FLANKERATOR]

Yes, the "heat signals" are these small lines the EOS is drawing on the HUD when it detects a heat source. Unlike radar lines (contacts) which may appear with more or less brightness, EOS lines may vary in length and thickness depending on the heat level and distance from the emitting source.

[104th_Crunch]

Actually that search warning is exactly the same as lock warning... it only sends audible tone when RWR is exposed to radar energy... difference is single short tone when radar just scans accross in its pattern and lock is continuous tone because radar is no longer scnaning but has constant energy beam towards you.

 

Probably just a misunderstanding of my wording. By warning I mean the audible tone. The 2 types as you state are

 

1) "single short tone when radar just scans accross in its pattern"

 

2) "lock is continuous tone because radar is no longer scnaning but has constant energy beam towards you"

 

Of course there is a 3rd tone for missile launch.

 

Fitness, have a look at these pages

 

From the manual pg 211:

 

In the case of an acquisition-type spike, the low frequency audio tone will sound.

 

If a radar is in lock mode, the "Lock/Launch" indicator will light up, along with a steady, high frequency audio tone.

 

If a radar-guided missile launch is detected, the "Lock/Launch" light will flash, along with a high pitched audio tone.

 

For US Aircraft pg 213:

 

When a new threat is detected, a high pitched audio tone is heard once, and the threat symbol displays a hemisphere mark above the symbol.

 

When the RWR detects a radar in acquisition mode, a chirp audio tone will be heard.

 

When a threat locks on to your aircraft, the RWR tone will change from a periodic chirp to a constant chirping sound.

 

If a missile launch is detected, an audio launch warning will be heard. It will repeat itself every 15 seconds until the threat is gone.

[104th_Crunch]

The pitch elevation of the scan pattern is displayed at the HUD center-right.

After testing, this does not seem to be modelled.

 

Not sure what you mean by seeing the heat signals

 

Think of the IRST as a vertical cross section of what's in front of you. It is not like an overhead view that you get from radar. There is a nice picture in the manual as well.

 

Pg 37 of Manual

 

 

When searching with IRST, target information is displayed in the HUD azimuth-elevation coordinates (as opposed to the azimuth-range coordinates when searching with radar). Azimuth is along horizontal, elevation angle along the vertical axes respectively.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Crunch

[fitness88]

Think of the IRST as a vertical cross section of what's in front of you. It is not like an overhead view that you get from radar. There is a nice picture in the manual as well.

 

Pg 37 of Manual

 

 

When searching with IRST, target information is displayed in the HUD azimuth-elevation coordinates (as opposed to the azimuth-range coordinates when searching with radar). Azimuth is along horizontal, elevation angle along the vertical axes respectively.

 

Thanks I was looking at this page tonight.

So the higher up a target mark is on the HUD, this would indicate not range as with radar but instead, elevation. As far as my previous post "What is the value in showing elevation movement using the notch marks on the left of the HDD if the notch marks don't indicate anything specific with relationship to the movement of the IRST. As an example, +1 notch could = x degrees line of sight."

So instead you can work with approximates. Correct me if I'm wrong but knowning the max +angle of IRST is 60 degrees and the max

-angle is 15 degrees, you can approximate the angle based on the relative position of the notch on the HDD.

Edited February 4, 2011 by fitness88

[fitness88]

Yes, the "heat signals" are these small lines the EOS is drawing on the HUD when it detects a heat source. Unlike radar lines (contacts) which may appear with more or less brightness, EOS lines may vary in length and thickness depending on the heat level and distance from the emitting source.

 

This sounds interesting but is a bit vague. Are you saying that the heat signals on the HUD indicates some sort of relative position to the target and is coming from the plane emitting the source heat?

[fitness88]

Probably just a misunderstanding of my wording. By warning I mean the audible tone. The 2 types as you state are

 

1) "single short tone when radar just scans accross in its pattern"

 

2) "lock is continuous tone because radar is no longer scnaning but has constant energy beam towards you"

 

Of course there is a 3rd tone for missile launch.

Accompanied by the SPO flashing

Fitness, have a look at these pages

 

From the manual pg 211:

 

In the case of an acquisition-type spike, the low frequency audio tone will sound.

 

If a radar is in lock mode, the "Lock/Launch" indicator will light up, along with a steady, high frequency audio tone.

By high frequency does that mean more rapid or high pitched?

If a radar-guided missile launch is detected, the "Lock/Launch" light will flash, along with a high pitched audio tone.

 

For US Aircraft pg 213:

 

When a new threat is detected, a high pitched audio tone is heard once, and the threat symbol displays a hemisphere mark above the symbol.

If this is referring to a target's radar scan emissions being detected by the RWR, isn't that the same as acquisition mode being detected?

When the RWR detects a radar in acquisition mode, a chirp audio tone will be heard.

See above:

When a threat locks on to your aircraft, the RWR tone will change from a periodic chirp to a constant chirping sound.

 

If a missile launch is detected, an audio launch warning will be heard. It will repeat itself every 15 seconds until the threat is gone.

 

Thank you.

[Pilotasso]

The TWS implementation of the SU-27 is far from the real deal, as are the sensors in general. FC2 representation should not be compared to realistic radar/eos functions that exist on the 27 and 29.

 

And just as an example there is a separate toggle switch on the radar control panel that disables automatic target acquisition in TWS mode.

 

 

Are you saying that the modes are worng, or just just missing?

 

I believe this is the same for all aircraft.

[104th_Crunch]

This sounds interesting but is a bit vague. Are you saying that the heat signals on the HUD indicates some sort of relative position to the target and is coming from the plane emitting the source heat?

 

Yes. For example a transport will be 5 dashes wide, a fighter 3 and a cruise missile 1 ( I think those are the numbers, but don't quote me). The numbers, however, stay the same regardless of range in FC2. For ex. a fighter will always be 3 dashes regardless of range. In RL I would think that it would change depending on aspect, range, afterburner etc.

 

Here is a question, does FC2 model a larger heat signature for planes in afterburner in regard to IR missile tracking?

 

Fitness,

To answer your other questions.

 

Frequency = pitch.

 

If this is referring to a target's radar scan emissions being detected by the RWR, isn't that the same as acquisition mode being detected?

 

Not the same. Any time you get a new scan emission on the TEWS in search mode, you get a distinct and separate tone as well as the symbol.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Crunch

[Boberro]

The TWS implementation of the SU-27 is far from the real deal, as are the sensors in general. FC2 representation should not be compared to realistic radar/eos functions that exist on the 27 and 29.

 

And just as an example there is a separate toggle switch on the radar control panel that disables automatic target acquisition in TWS mode.

 

You didn't discover America :P I think all people who play LO longer know that LO2 avionic systems are gently saying - funny - compared to real ones.

Anyway even with such simplifications it is good game.

[RIPTIDE]

Yes. For example a transport will be 5 dashes wide, a fighter 3 and a cruise missile 1 ( I think those are the numbers, but don't quote me). The numbers, however, stay the same regardless of range in FC2. For ex. a fighter will always be 3 dashes regardless of range. In RL I would think that it would change depending on aspect, range, afterburner etc.

 

Here is a question, does FC2 model a larger heat signature for planes in afterburner in regard to IR missile tracking?

 

Fitness,

To answer your other questions.

 

Frequency = pitch.

 

If this is referring to a target's radar scan emissions being detected by the RWR, isn't that the same as acquisition mode being detected?

 

Not the same. Any time you get a new scan emission on the TEWS in search mode, you get a distinct and separate tone as well as the symbol.

Crunch. There will be more dashs for a fighter in AB rear aspect.

[fitness88]

Yes. For example a transport will be 5 dashes wide, a fighter 3 and a cruise missile 1 ( I think those are the numbers, but don't quote me). The numbers, however, stay the same regardless of range in FC2. For ex. a fighter will always be 3 dashes regardless of range. In RL I would think that it would change depending on aspect, range, afterburner etc.

 

Sorry Crunch, I wasn't referring to the HUD's cross-section dots [... or ....] you see in radar or the heat signature dots you see in IRST. I was referring to other dots directly under the pitch ladder numbers, I'll try and post a photo. It may just be a graphic anomaly.

 

Here is a question, does FC2 model a larger heat signature for planes in afterburner in regard to IR missile tracking?

 

Riptide just posted the answer

 

 

Fitness,

To answer your other questions.

 

Frequency = pitch.

 

If this is referring to a target's radar scan emissions being detected by the RWR, isn't that the same as acquisition mode being detected?

 

Not the same. Any time you get a new scan emission on the TEWS in search mode, you get a distinct and separate tone as well as the symbol.

 

Ironhand has some very good tutorials that are well worth watching http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/flightbasics.htm

Thank you.

Edited February 4, 2011 by fitness88

[fitness88]

MIG 29s:

My Target acquisition capability is getting better and I'm getting within missile launch range and firing but what I'm not doing well at all is missile evasion. With active missiles, I've started to watch the light way on the SPO more carefully so that when I see the light indicating missile range to me is one light away from my plane I start to evade and chaff. Is that what I should be doing because it's not really working that well for me:mad:

 

I need to watch Ironhand's tutorial again.

Thank you.

Edited February 4, 2011 by fitness88

[GGTharos]

IH's tutorials don't necessarily apply perfectly to FC2.

 

How you dodge the incoming missile depends on your distance to the shooter. An AMRAAM launched at low altitude from 10nm can be evaded with a crank + ortho-roll, and you don't even really need the RWR - just look out for the missile visually.

 

If you're at 10nm and 40000', you're screwed unless the missile is coming from high and you're able to notch.

 

If you're at 20nm and 20000', you can apply the same technique as before, but it's harder. You can also increase your speed in the hopes of gimbaling it out.

 

All this allows you to maintain lock.

 

What if you're in a situation where the missile is look-down and shot from a range that you cannot kinematically evade, notch it.

If you are in the same situation but look-up, you can attempt an ortho-roll but this is a very high pk scenario and your odds are not good, period.

 

In general, the 'rwr trick' is just that - we can rely on it in the game because things are 100% accurate which is in fact not realistic (pilots do not rely on this in RL to dodge such missiles).

 

Start by learning to notch properly. This is your number one defense. Everything else builds on this as all other defensive maneuvers require similar accuracy.

 

You have four basic defensive maneuvers:

 

1. Run away. Self explanatory.

2. Notch. Explained elsewhere in the forum.

3. Out-gimbal the missile. A little harder, but can be done.

4. Ortho-roll: This is your last ditch defense and in general, against FC2 actives your chances are not good if the missile is in the high-energy part of its flight.

[fitness88]

IH's tutorials don't necessarily apply perfectly to FC2.

 

How you dodge the incoming missile depends on your distance to the shooter. An AMRAAM launched at low altitude from 10nm can be evaded with a crank + ortho-roll, and you don't even really need the RWR - just look out for the missile visually.

 

If you're at 10nm and 40000', you're screwed unless the missile is coming from high and you're able to notch.

 

If you're at 20nm and 20000', you can apply the same technique as before, but it's harder. You can also increase your speed in the hopes of gimbaling it out.

 

All this allows you to maintain lock.

 

What if you're in a situation where the missile is look-down and shot from a range that you cannot kinematically evade, notch it.

If you are in the same situation but look-up, you can attempt an ortho-roll but this is a very high pk scenario and your odds are not good, period.

 

In general, the 'rwr trick' is just that - we can rely on it in the game because things are 100% accurate which is in fact not realistic (pilots do not rely on this in RL to dodge such missiles).

 

Start by learning to notch properly. This is your number one defense. Everything else builds on this as all other defensive maneuvers require similar accuracy.

 

You have four basic defensive maneuvers:

 

1. Run away. Self explanatory.

2. Notch. Explained elsewhere in the forum.

3. Out-gimbal the missile. A little harder, but can be done.

4. Ortho-roll: This is your last ditch defense and in general, against FC2 actives your chances are not good if the missile is in the high-energy part of its flight.

 

Thanks GGTharos I'll be working on this. BTW, what is an ortho-roll I tried searching but no joy?

Edited February 4, 2011 by fitness88

[GGTharos]

It is an orthogonal roll.

 

Put the missile on you 3-9 line.

A few moments before it hits, pull up sharply and THEN roll into it, attempting to keep your wing pointed straight at it.

[fitness88]

It is an orthogonal roll.

 

Put the missile on you 3-9 line.

A few moments before it hits, pull up sharply and THEN roll into it, attempting to keep your wing pointed straight at it.

 

 

Thanks, will give it a try.

[104th_Crunch]

Crunch. There will be more dashs for a fighter in AB rear aspect.

 

Nice observation. Missed that one thanks.

[104th_Crunch]

does FC2 model a larger heat signature for planes in afterburner in regard to IR missile tracking?

 

It is a hard thing to test. IR signature does not seem to change when a contact is on your IRST display and it goes AB. GG. Someone confirm missile tracking? Sorry if it has been mentioned here before.

 

Fitness, what I find sucks is that RUS jets have no time to active counter. So, after you launch, and then breaking away maximum gimbal, you must guestimate when you can turn away fully and missile goes pitbull. Of course, this seems to be another thing missing in FC. For the Su-27 anyway. I bet DCS:Su-27 would have it ;)

[GGTharos]

There is a difference for missile tracking - namely the distance at which the target is detected by the missile seeker, and countermeasure resistance.

[fitness88]

It is a hard thing to test. IR signature does not seem to change when a contact is on your IRST display and it goes AB. GG. Someone confirm missile tracking? Sorry if it has been mentioned here before.

 

Fitness, what I find sucks is that RUS jets have no time to active counter. So, after you launch, and then breaking away maximum gimbal, you must guestimate when you can turn away fully and missile goes pitbull. Of course, this seems to be another thing missing in FC. For the Su-27 anyway. I bet DCS:Su-27 would have it ;)

 

Ditto GG.

Coming from flying Jane's F/A-18 this was a notable challenge. From what I've been reading and watching, at max range after approx. 45 seconds you can figure the tgt was hit or missed. So figuring in the range to your tgt from your MIG is important so as to have some idea as to when your r-77 will go active which I believe is 15km from the tgt.

[104th_Crunch]

There is a difference for missile tracking - namely the distance at which the target is detected by the missile seeker, and countermeasure resistance.

 

 

Thanks GG

[fitness88]

Look at the SPO-15 RWR. Flying a SU-27 or 33 the chart converts the radar strength you see on your SPO to the radar emitting plane's distance. Does anyone have an idea how to convert this chart flying another plane such as the MIG-29s? Or would all the Russian RWRs be the same?

 

 

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa271/Viper159th/spo.jpg

 

Thank you.

Edited February 6, 2011 by fitness88

[Boberro]

It is the same for MiG-29 cause it's just receiver device :)

[104th_Crunch]

Yes, as Bob says it is the same SPO-15 in the MiG-29, Su-27/33 and Su-25. The difference is what a radar strength will display as on the RWR. A stronger radar will light up more yet be further away. A weaker radar will light up less yet be closer.