Does the F-15 have an advantage in BVR firing the aim-120?

[fitness88]

In BVR combat does the aim-120 give a distinct advantage to the F-15 over the r-27er to the MIG-29?

Thank you.

[Outlaw]

TWS shot in F15 is different than the Russian jets TWS shot with ER..

 

you will not get a missile lunch warning when F-15 lunch, you will only get a warning when the missile radar (Aim120) goes active (pitbull= 1st timer goes zero)....

 

To make the ER works the same way is lunching ER with EOS / vertical scan then turning Radar on but this works for a limited range and some times ER wont track if you wait too long to switch radar on...

 

Also the Aim120, you can leave the missile support (break locks) once u get pitbull, but unfortunately most people dont do that and they just fire and forget and in most cases, it wont track or 2 easy 2 evade if the distance between the jets equal or greater than 20Nm.

 

ER missiles has to be supported (maintain locks)all the way to impact...

 

 

Aim120 is smokeless and impossible to spot unlike ER comes with smoke..

[FLANKERATOR]

In BVR combat does the aim-120 give a distinct advantage to the F-15 over the r-27er to the MIG-29?

Thank you.

 

I would say all the missiles have their own strengths and weaknesses, and advantage in BVR depends on ROE's and pilot skills.

 

120's have fire and forget capability but their PK is lower than ER's because of the terminal stage guidance itself that relies on a limited missile seeker azimuth plus the fact that its relatively easy to evade using RWR countdown.

 

ER's have longer range, impossible to read on a RWR but expose you more as you have to keep the lock untill impact.

 

This is for 1vs1. in many vs many it's totally different as way more options are possible in term of tactics.

[aaron886]

This thread definitely doesn't belong in the Mods and Apps forum.

[GGTharos]

;1093874']TWS shot in F15 is different than the Russian jets TWS shot with ER..

 

There is no TWS shot for the ER.

 

To make the ER works the same way is lunching ER with EOS / vertical scan then turning Radar on but this works for a limited range and some times ER wont track if you wait too long to switch radar on...

 

That would be abusing a bug. You should not be able to launch an ER without lock unless you're performing emergency jettison. The missile should simply not function since it isn't tuned to the radar emission (when you turn on the radar, there is a waveguide connecting it to the missiles which tunes the missiles to pick up the correct signal while they are still on the pylon).

[winz]

plus the fact that its relatively easy to evade using RWR countdown.

Could you please expand this?

I find 120s and r77 hardest to evade, mainly because of how hard they are to notch (atleast for me). :)

[FLANKERATOR]

Could you please expand this?

I find 120s and r77 hardest to evade, mainly because of how hard they are to notch (atleast for me). :)

 

 

Well active missiles switch their on board radar on when close enough to the target, you can notice that easily on your RWR. For the SPO, the bars reset and start displaying missile closure instead of launcher radar distance. in TEWS, you get a symbol that starts moving to the center of the screen.

 

Then you can use that to synchronize your evasive maneuvers and get more efficiency at evading the missile, in one word you have a clear situational awareness which will never be the case if an ER is inbound as all you will get is distance to the launching platform, so unless you get tally on the missile (not so evident), you start feeling stress as only way is to calculate/estimate very fast missile closure based on speeds, altitude, attitude and distance at launch.

[winz]

Thanks :)

[fitness88]

This thread definitely doesn't belong in the Mods and Apps forum.

 

 

Right you are...sorry about that mistake.

[RIPTIDE]

Well active missiles switch their on board radar on when close enough to the target, you can notice that easily on your RWR. For the SPO, the bars reset and start displaying missile closure instead of launcher radar distance. in TEWS, you get a symbol that starts moving to the center of the screen.

 

Then you can use that to synchronize your evasive maneuvers and get more efficiency at evading the missile, in one word you have a clear situational awareness which will never be the case if an ER is inbound as all you will get is distance to the launching platform, so unless you get tally on the missile (not so evident), you start feeling stress as only way is to calculate/estimate very fast missile closure based on speeds, altitude, attitude and distance at launch.

A AIM-7 into the mix remedies this often. :)

[fitness88]

It just seems that having the ability to fire and forget, then being free to maneuver is a big advantage over having to stay the course till your missile hits.

[104th_Crunch]

It just seems that having the ability to fire and forget, then being free to maneuver is a big advantage over having to stay the course till your missile hits.

 

Yes, of course it does! Active missiles are a tech that came after semi-active, and a generation ahead. For example F-15/18 were upgraded to use the AIM-120. Remember though that the R-77 on the MiG-29 does this as well, but unlike the F-15, you get no TWS muti-target capability, and no Time To Active counter. You also get less missiles, and in FC2 the AIM-120C out ranges a R-77.

 

Check out the Wikipedia page for the AIM-120. The quote below applies to FC2 with the exception of the R-77 out ranging the AIM-120, but I trust ED more than Wikipedia ;)

 

 

Lower-capability targets

This leads to two main engagement scenarios. If the target is not armed with any medium or long-range fire-and-forget weapons, the attacking aircraft need only to get close enough to the target and launch the AMRAAM. In these scenarios, the AMRAAM has a high chance of hitting, especially against low-maneuverability targets. The launch distance depends upon whether the target is heading towards or away from the firing aircraft. In a head-on engagement, the missile can be launched at longer range, since the range will be closing fast. In this situation, even if the target turns around, it is unlikely it can speed up and fly away fast enough to avoid being overtaken and hit by the missile (as long as the missile is not released too early). It is also unlikely the enemy can outmaneuver the missile since the closure rate will be so great. In a tail-on engagement, the firing aircraft might have to close to between one-half and one-quarter maximum range (or maybe even closer for a very fast target) in order to give the missile sufficient energy to overtake the targets.

If the targets are armed with missiles, the fire-and-forget nature of the AMRAAM is valuable, enabling the launching aircraft to fire missiles at the target and subsequently take defensive actions. Even if the targets have longer-range semi-active radar homing (SARH) missiles, they will have to chase the launching aircraft in order for the missiles to track them, effectively flying right into the AMRAAM. If the target aircraft fires missiles and then turn and runs away, their own missiles will not be able to hit. Of course, if the target aircraft have long range missiles, even if they are not fire-and-forget, the fact that they force the launching aircraft to turn and run reduces the kill probability, since it is possible that without the mid-course updates the missiles will not find the target aircraft. However the chance of success is still good and compared to the relative impunity the launching aircraft enjoy, this gives the AMRAAM-equipped aircraft a decisive edge. If one or more missiles fail to hit, the AMRAAM-equipped aircraft can turn and re-engage, although they will be at a disadvantage compared to the chasing aircraft due to the speed they lose in the turn, and would have to be careful that they are not being tracked with SARH missiles.

[edit] Similarly armed targets

 

The other main engagement scenario is against other aircraft with fire-and-forget missiles like the Vympel R-77 (NATO AA-12 "Adder") — perhaps MiG-29s, Su-27s or similar. In this case engagement is very much down to teamwork and could be described as "a game of chicken." Both flights of aircraft can fire their missiles at each other beyond visual range (BVR), but then face the problem that if they continue to track the target aircraft in order to provide mid-course updates for the missile's flight, they are also flying into their opponents' missiles. Although in this regard the RVV-AE (which is the missile's export name or R-77 the official Russian Air force designation) does have an advantage as it has a greater range than the AMRAAM (when the AIM-120D is deployed the AMRAAM will have 30+ miles more range than the standard R-77[citation needed] but much less than the ramjet powered R-77M and the Meteor missiles which will also enter service along with AIM-120D). This assumes of course that all aircraft will detect each other, however American fighters enjoy considerable current and future advantages in stealth, electronic warfare and offboard sensor support.[citation needed]

Edited February 2, 2011 by Crunch

[Cali]

Well active missiles switch their on board radar on when close enough to the target, you can notice that easily on your RWR. For the SPO, the bars reset and start displaying missile closure instead of launcher radar distance. in TEWS, you get a symbol that starts moving to the center of the screen.

 

Then you can use that to synchronize your evasive maneuvers and get more efficiency at evading the missile, in one word you have a clear situational awareness which will never be the case if an ER is inbound as all you will get is distance to the launching platform, so unless you get tally on the missile (not so evident), you start feeling stress as only way is to calculate/estimate very fast missile closure based on speeds, altitude, attitude and distance at launch.

 

For ER shots, If you know how far away the launching aircraft is, you can judge when to evade and roughly how much time you have. Takes practice and some math.

[fitness88]

Crunch:

Good article it seems to support what I was saying. The R-77 is a good choice against the AIM-120...lots to learn.

 

I have a radar question. Does the Mig radar stabilize where I point it even when I climb or does it snowplow? For example, if I'm flying flight level at 5000m, radar is out 100km and raised 3000m, will my radar stabilize on that specific altitude even when I climb given gimble limits, or will the radar snowplow, get forced up to search a higher altitude.

 

Thank you

[sungsam]

For ER shots, If you know how far away the launching aircraft is, you can judge when to evade and roughly how much time you have. Takes practice and some math.

 

Additionally, the speed closure rate and height difference of launching platform has a great impact on calculations.

[Cali]

Additionally, the speed closure rate and height difference of launching platform has a great impact on calculations.

 

Yes it does, if you get a missile off, make sure you F-pole. Then the calculations come into play. Distance, missile speed, burn time and deceleration. Another thing is while doing the F-fole, learn how to bleed the missiles speed way before it gets to you.

[FLANKERATOR]

A AIM-7 into the mix remedies this often. :)

 

Very TRUE :) a sparrow followed by a 120 with good timing, you get the 120's countdown on your RWR, starts feeling better just before eating the sparrow...surely one of the best tricks :D

[FLANKERATOR]

Crunch:

Good article it seems to support what I was saying. The R-77 is a good choice against the AIM-120...lots to learn.

 

I have a radar question. Does the Mig radar stabilize where I point it even when I climb or does it snowplow? For example, if I'm flying flight level at 5000m, radar is out 100km and raised 3000m, will my radar stabilize on that specific altitude even when I climb given gimble limits, or will the radar snowplow, get forced up to search a higher altitude.

 

Thank you

 

it will snoplow, STT mode is the way to stablize it on a target, not sure about TWS mode as I have never used it on a russian fighter.

 

Still not a big issue, you can manually adjust the radar scanning elevation to keep tracking while changing your altitude.

[Mugenjin]

it will snoplow, STT mode is the way to stablize it on a target, not sure about TWS mode as I have never used it on a russian fighter.

 

Still not a big issue, you can manually adjust the radar scanning elevation to keep tracking while changing your altitude.

 

woot I always thought that the radar is stabilised to the horizon (as long as it's within gimbal limits) :joystick:

[GGTharos]

The R-77 is the best choice available to you on a Russian fighter against the AIM-120 equipped opponent. In reality, it isn't exactly competitive (not that it isn't dangerous or deadly, you'll simply get fewer kills per number of shots than with a 120). This is the difference between 'the best available choice' and 'good choice'. An AIM-120 or Meteor would be better.

 

In FC2, The 120 and 77 are more or less equal.

 

 

The mig radar stabilizes on the relative scan zone where you have commanded it. Ie. if you point it -2km down at 30km, as long as you are within gimbal limits, that is where it will point. It stabilizes on the relative LOS, not the absolute altitude.

 

This means is you point it -2km from 5km, you're looking at 3km, but if you climb to 7km, you'll be looking down to 5km - so yeah, it does snowplow.

 

Crunch:

Good article it seems to support what I was saying. The R-77 is a good choice against the AIM-120...lots to learn.

 

I have a radar question. Does the Mig radar stabilize where I point it even when I climb or does it snowplow? For example, if I'm flying flight level at 5000m, radar is out 100km and raised 3000m, will my radar stabilize on that specific altitude even when I climb given gimble limits, or will the radar snowplow, get forced up to search a higher altitude.

 

Thank you

Edited February 2, 2011 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

TWS in the Russian fighters is a situational awareness mode, not a weapons employment mode. If you 'bug' a target in Russian TWS, it will go straight to STT if the target is inside 0.8 of max weapon range.

 

it will snoplow, STT mode is the way to stablize it on a target, not sure about TWS mode as I have never used it on a russian fighter.

 

Still not a big issue, you can manually adjust the radar scanning elevation to keep tracking while changing your altitude.

[RIPTIDE]

woot I always thought that the radar is stabilised to the horizon (as long as it's within gimbal limits) :joystick:

Its stabilised at the angle you slew it to. As you increase altitude or decrease, this radar slew angle remains... so you can imagine it can drop off your contact if he remains at his altitude if you dive for example.

[Pilotasso]

;1093874']Also the Aim120, you can leave the missile support (break locks) once u get pitbull, but unfortunately most people dont do that and they just fire and forget and in most cases, it wont track or 2 easy 2 evade if the distance between the jets equal or greater than 20Nm.

 

Big misconception here.

 

First F-15's dont drop suporting their AIM-120 missiles any more than migs do with their R-77's for the simple reason these missiles have a more realistic scan zones in Fc2. They will only catch you if you keep flying in a straight line. If you do, you deserve to be shot down. :)

[RIPTIDE]

Big misconception here.

 

First F-15's dont drop suporting their AIM-120 missiles any more than migs do with their R-77's for the simple reason these missiles have a more realistic scan zones in Fc2. They will only catch you if you keep flying in a straight line. If you do, you deserve to be shot down. :)

lol. ya. Remember that 90 degree all round scan zone in FC1.0? Crazy... brings back many tears. :)

[fitness88]

woot I always thought that the radar is stabilised to the horizon (as long as it's within gimbal limits) :joystick:

 

Having flown Jane's F/A-18 the Super Hornet radar was stabilised not only to the horizon but as well it was stablised to what ever altiutude you had it slewed to even if you were climbing or descending (as long as it's within gimbal limits). So if you were slewed to 5000 feet above your current altitude, 25 miles out, it would stabilise to that altitude no matter what your nose attitude was. You could say it 'locked onto' the set altitude like it was in STT mode.

But from what I'm reading hear, the Russian radar does not do this.

 

Thanks to all who posted this makes for interesting reading.

Edited February 2, 2011 by fitness88