The P Word - ETA?

WynnTTr · February 28, 2011

I think people often get confused with the fidelity of the sim, which implies a high standard of quality, and the nature of it's beta and release cycle. The sim itself is not the problem, nor is it general development process. In fact I find that side of it pretty impressive. The problem is that it was released prematurely without the necessary checks and level of testing required to ensure qualification for release.

Wall of text.

So when should they release it? 6 months from now? A year, 2 years? There will always be bugs and new patches will create bugs of their own.

Even if the release is generally accepted as bug free (BS came real close to this - still most stable release I've ever seen in a sim) then there will ALWAYS be people who will complain as it's not working for them.

The reality is that it's impossible to cater for every single configuration, deviation, customisation of the pc gaming world.

It may not be working for you but it's running perfectly for me. I don't think it needed to be in beta anymore and it wasn't released prematurely at all.

dne48 · February 28, 2011

Everyone needs to show alittle patience. First we were presently suprised with the final release, I am sure they are working on a polished patch to correct the issues. The game is outstanding.

To relax just free flight at sunset in the clouds, that should calm some nerves lol.

Good advice. And there are some great user made missions out there. And with a taste of everything. Check them out people

Zomba · February 28, 2011

Even though I clearly stated this wasn't a criticism, just an observation it seems perhaps you had a little bit of trouble understanding that.

As Nate often states, it will be released when it is ready. I like that saying, it's ironic. I used to use it a lot.

The time table is of no real interest to me at all. They release it when they want to, it's their project, not mine. They chose to release it in it's current state and circumstances. But it is their decision and therefore they enjoy the benefits and costs of it. If the customers are not happy with this then they should say so.

Where did I say it didn't work well on my system?

mooshim · February 28, 2011

IMO... a really articulate, gentlemanly post.

Thanks Zomba

WynnTTr · February 28, 2011

Even though I clearly stated this wasn't a criticism, just an observation it seems perhaps you had a little bit of trouble understanding that.

As Nate often states, it will be released when it is ready. I like that saying, it's ironic. I used to use it a lot.

The time table is of no real interest to me at all. They release it when they want to, it's their project, not mine. They chose to release it in it's current state and circumstances. But it is their decision and therefore they enjoy the benefits and costs of it. If the customers are not happy with this then they should say so.

Where did I say it didn't work well on my system?

The problem is that it was released prematurely without the necessary checks and level of testing required to ensure qualification for release.

If that's not a criticism, tell me what is.

Zomba · February 28, 2011

Observation?

WynnTTr · February 28, 2011

Observation?

Fair enough. IMO, you're observation's wrong.

Let's agree to disagree and keep flying.

Zomba · February 28, 2011

And I shall defend your right to disagree with me until my last dying breath. Happy flying.

February 28, 2011

Final Release?

I have a question...this was being called a final release, and now I see its being called a release candidate. Its for sale on the DCS web site as a download product with no stipulation of it being in some sort of testing phase. We went from Beta 4 to talking about patches and service releases. So what is it? is it beta? RC1? RTM? I'm not quite sure where We stand as consumers. I have a very buggy and unstable 1.1.0 and I see people posting all the same exact issues I'm having-with no resolution to the problems. I don't know that its as simple as updating My video driver or what if anything I can do. It looks like the flight model and cluster bombs were improved and everything else went back to alpha. Where exactly is the development of this software title?

WynnTTr · February 28, 2011

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=67746 and the fact that it's available on D2D is pretty unequivocal that this is the release version and not a RC. Anything else that comes out relating to this will be patches/fixes, not another entire game client.

Druid_ · February 28, 2011

Zomba, nice post and from someone in the know. When the ED testers post several times 'known issue that didn't make it to release' and it becomes obvious that there were quite a few (read the posts) then just maybe this should have been released as beta6. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to why this release wasn't?

I only hope that ED are working on a patch with the same/similar furvour as they were for the Release version.

Just a thought for the pro-ED lobby ; Would you buy a NEW car that had a comparable number of issues to DCS A10c? (Maybe you would if there was only 1 manufacturer & if you didn't like walking, and there.. is the rub).

WynnTTr · February 28, 2011

Zomba, nice post and from someone in the know. When the ED testers post several times 'known issue that didn't make it to release' and it becomes obvious that there were quite a few (read the posts) then just maybe this should have been released as beta6. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to why this release wasn't?

I only hope that ED are working on a patch with the same/similar furvour as they were for the Release version.

Just a thought for the pro-ED lobby ; Would you buy a NEW car that had a comparable number of issues to DCS A10c? (Maybe you would if there was only 1 manufacturer & if you didn't like walking, and there.. is the rub).

Stop comparing it with a product that's totally unrelated to what this is. Compare it to its peers and related subject matter. That way we get a better picture of the message you're trying to get across.

There are different standards that apply to different products and taking one that's not even remotely close to the subject matter doesn't really bring your argument across.

Yeah I'd like those jeans but would I buy them if my house was built that way? Doesn't make sense eh?

But again, IMO this was a fine release and didn't need any more beta phases. Patches, yes, fixes, yes - but you name one software title (I'm so confident I'm not confining myself to just the games genre) that didn't need any patch/fix.

Moa · February 28, 2011

@Druid. I think that it was released since it is 'good enough' and getting a money stream going is important.

Personally I was concerned by the betas (which I argued were actually 'alphas' IMHO) but the final product is head and shoulders above the betas. This is not to say there aren't a few things that need adjustment, but I don't think anything serious enough to stop shipping.

@Zomba: your post was right on the money. However, unlike physical production it is a lot easier to patch software out of the gate. When you build something physical an enormous amount of time goes into getting the design right because the effort and expense of changing the process or tooling (expensive!) later is so high. In software projects the entire project is often completed on the budget and timescale of only the 'design phase' of many physical projects (eg. a multi-storey building). Unfortunately this is the expectation in the industry for software (exception being the Space Shuttle flight control software, which took 10 years and is the *only* moderate size piece of software to be defect free). Since software is a bit different I think ED made a rational choice to release the product. What matters now is their commitment to patching the issues that arise (and all sorts of wierd an wonderful stuff happens when released in the field - stuff on client machines you simply cannot design or test for - unlike server-based software or a production plant). So, the software certainly will need some adjustment. Fortunately this is a well established process (software patching) and ED are very experienced in this and appear very willing to support the DCS line. I'm not going to ride them too hard at this time, instead I hope to give (polite) reports of what I expected and what the software is observed to do. We can all help in this way - since software is impossible to get perfectly right the first time (especially as the multitude of cockpit switches in the A-10C have a combinatorial complexity of interations, which must have been fiendishly hard to get as few defects as they seem to have in this area).

WynnTTr · February 28, 2011

@Druid. I think that it was released since it is 'good enough' and getting a money stream going is important.

Personally I was concerned by the betas (which I argued were actually 'alphas' IMHO) but the final product is head and shoulders above the betas. This is not to say there aren't a few things that need adjustment, but I don't think anything serious enough to stop shipping.

@Zomba: your post was right on the money. However, unlike physical production it is a lot easier to patch software out of the gate. When you build something physical an enormous amount of time goes into getting the design right because the effort and expense of changing the process or tooling (expensive!) later is so high. In software projects the entire project is often completed on the budget and timescale of only the 'design phase' of many physical projects (eg. a multi-storey building). Unfortunately this is the expectation in the industry for software (exception being the Space Shuttle flight control software, which took 10 years and is the *only* moderate size piece of software to be defect free). Since software is a bit different I think ED made a rational choice to release the product. What matters now is their commitment to patching the issues that arise (and all sorts of wierd an wonderful stuff happens when released in the field - stuff on client machines you simply cannot design or test for - unlike server-based software or a production plant). So, the software certainly will need some adjustment. Fortunately this is a well established process (software patching) and ED are very experienced in this and appear very willing to support the DCS line. I'm not going to ride them too hard at this time, instead I hope to give (polite) reports of what I expected and what the software is observed to do. We can all help in this way - since software is impossible to get perfectly right the first time (especially as the multitude of cockpit switches in the A-10C have a combinatorial complexity of interations, which must have been fiendishly hard to get as few defects as they seem to have in this area).

Well said ...

.... and much more reasonable than saying that there should be more betas. We wouldn't be enjoying what we have now if there were.

Druid_ · February 28, 2011

Well said ...
.... and much more reasonable than saying that there should be more betas. We wouldn't be enjoying what we have now if there were.

Interesting, How come?

My point and frustration is that the software industry releases with known defects knowing that they can patch later. Personally I think its unreasonable to pay for a product that hasn't been finished, maybe I am just 'old school' here. I have a BSc in Computer SCience and have never released any program with known bugs in it. Possibly the issue here for some is how many bugs are acceptable in a release version but I think we can put this one to bed as everyone has differing opinions. I will say however, given BS as a peer, I am a little surprised ED released with the number of 'known' bugs' that have come to light.

hassata · February 28, 2011

Just a thought for the pro-ED lobby ; Would you buy a NEW car that had a comparable number of issues to DCS A10c? (Maybe you would if there was only 1 manufacturer & if you didn't like walking, and there.. is the rub).

And please can we have someone comparing it to cars also? Every thread should have one because no thread is complete without a car analogy!! ;)

Im waiting!!

(Yes, I hate car analogies)

May all your wishes come true Sticky :D.

mooshim · February 28, 2011

I'm still waiting for my Mig Alley, DI's Superhornet and Falcon 4.0 to get patched. --Now THAT's old school. :D

j/k...

Cheers,

Moosh

I really enjoyed Operation Talisker --Thx

sobek · February 28, 2011

Unfortunately this is the expectation in the industry for software (exception being the Space Shuttle flight control software, which took 10 years and is the *only* moderate size piece of software to be defect free).

There is no such thing. IIRC the quality standard for comparable control systems calls for less than one error per 1000 lines of code (greatly simplified).

As to all your speculation why the software was released in it's current state, you are taking shots in the dark. Nobody is going to turn on the light. Better stop the shooting before somebody gets hurt again. Enough harm has been done by the after dusk shooting club. Leave it be. Just a suggestion.

Edited February 28, 2011 by sobek

WynnTTr · February 28, 2011

Interesting, How come?

My point and frustration is that the software industry releases with known defects knowing that they can patch later. Personally I think its unreasonable to pay for a product that hasn't been finished, maybe I am just 'old school' here. I have a BSc in Computer SCience and have never released any program with known bugs in it. Possibly the issue here for some is how many bugs are acceptable in a release version but I think we can put this one to bed as everyone has differing opinions. I will say however, given BS as a peer, I am a little surprised ED released with the number of 'known' bugs' that have come to light.

Where have you been game software wise? What games have you payed for that was released and bug free? What piece of "old school" software didn't have patches/fixes... hmm? Name me two, heck, name me one.

And yeah you're right. My opinion differs from yours - ED didn't need to have any more betas as this release is working fine for me.

Druid_ · February 28, 2011

WynTTr you are missing the point. I freely admit it is impossible to release thousands of lines of code without there being errors in it. I have been talking about releasing code with 'known' errors in it prior to release. Please go back and re-read my posts.

I am glad your version is working fine and you are happy. Strange you haven't had any of the problems others have posted.

WynnTTr · February 28, 2011

WynTTr you are missing the point. I freely admit it is impossible to release thousands of lines of code without there being errors in it. I have been talking about releasing code with 'known' errors in it prior to release. Please go back and re-read my posts.

I am glad your version is working fine and you are happy. Strange you haven't had any of the problems others have posted.

Why is it strange? Just because it might fail for you and some others does it mean that different people, such as myself, might have it running well? Maybe I should find and link the first impression thread or the DCS final thread.

Because it has bugs that are now becoming apparent on release does that mean that ED released it intentionally like that? Every patch/fix will bring it's own bugs - that doesn't mean that ED have done it intentionally.

Sandman · February 28, 2011

Unfortunately this is the expectation in the industry for software (exception being the Space Shuttle flight control software, which took 10 years and is the *only* moderate size piece of software to be defect free).

You're comparing apples and oranges - flight control software is safety critical and developed to much higher standards of integrity, for good reason. Coding rates on safety critical systems are very low and the burden of proof that the software is correct is very high.

Not sure where you got the idea that Shuttle FCS is the only defect free software on earth - now there's a claim just wanting to be shot down by someone :lol:.

One thing is for sure, if you ran DCS-A10C on shuttle hardware the frame rates would be appalling (the computer HW is about 20 years old isn't it - smartphones have beefier processors these days). :music_whistling:

But that's the point really - Shuttle and similar safety critical systems have enormous constraints due to the safety risk, so they don't end up being large and complex (like DCS) without very good reason - keeping it small and simple is the watchword in that game...

Druid_ · February 28, 2011

Why is it strange? Just because it might fail for you and some others does it mean that different people, such as myself, might have it running well? Maybe I should find and link the first impression thread or the DCS final thread.

Bit of difference betweeen first impressions and lasting impressions but hey ..

link for you http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=68471 (and thats just a few) not saying that they are all correct but can't believe you dont have any of those problems.

Because it has bugs that are now becoming apparent on release does that mean that ED released it intentionally like that? Every patch/fix will bring it's own bugs - that doesn't mean that ED have done it intentionally.

There are several posts from ED specifically saying 'known issue prior to release' otherwise I wouldn't have posted as such.

ilikepie · February 28, 2011

do you think it was released to stop all the whining? as a form of punishment? J/K (or am i....?)

as well as getting a revenue stream running and buying them more time to dig for the deeper bugs?

WynnTTr · February 28, 2011

Bit of difference betweeen first impressions and lasting impressions but hey ..
link for you http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=68471 (and thats just a few) not saying that they are all correct but can't believe you dont have any of those problems.

There are several posts from ED specifically saying 'known issue prior to release' otherwise I wouldn't have posted as such.

I didn't say it was bug free - merely that it was working for me. Smooth frame rates with everything on max, gun doesn't stutter, campaign works, not one crash or freeze. Nothing that has been game breaking. As a final release it's been very good.

Known issues to be corrected after release in a patch? Nothing new with this either. I've already said that this is what is needed only - patches/fixes.. not another period of time in beta phase. It's been an outstanding release.

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