Flight envelope issue when using Full G Effects

[LiquidFuse]

The issue here is not ED's G model... which if you ask me is spot on.... it's the users out there that pull the stick to the stops with every single pull... From take off to landing!! you would not last long in a real BMF fight...

 

Sorry, this has nothing to do with that in my case, I carefully watch my accelerometer to not pull more than 4 G's while on closure, then pull 7 g's on the initial turn usually, since I'm already slowed down to 350 - 320 knots for the merge turn. The MAXIMUM amount of time I can pull 7 G's for, even after a fresh respawn, is 15 seconds. After this the pilot starts to blackout, fast. :icon_excl

 

Please note that I said 7 G's, not 9. I wouldn't be making my case that the pilot should be able to pull 9 G's without blacking out... :icon_roll

 

Most people fly wrong.... that's a fact... that’s what makes online flying so hard... people are doing things that you just would not do in real life due to many constrants...

 

You're right, some people do fly wrong, of course.

 

However, I will be making a few tracks soon to prove some of my points. The tracks will be fights against some of the best 27 pilots in HL, while I fly the F-15. You would be in a position to watch my flight tendencies and judge for yourself if its a situation of careless yanking or simply G limitations pressed on the F-15 pilot that cause him to lose.

 

In the real world of air combat... you can assume things... like I am feeling pain when I put all this G on the jet... I bet he is too... can I out last him in this turn... I hope those extra leg presses I did in the gym this week help me outlast this guy in this turn....

 

This all too true in a real life situation, but this does not relate to Lo-Mac in any way shape or form since ALL planes use the same G effect model.

 

Pilots in Lo-Mac don't do leg presses. No amount of slow speed turning will prepare my pilot to tolerate more G's...

 

Like I said before, even after a fresh respawn, the maximum amount of time I can withstand 7 G's (not 8, nor 9!!!) is 15 s. 7 G's acounts for a 350 KIAS turn while bleeding speed slowly during the turn with 8,000 pounds of fuel onboard.

 

As for fight speeds... F-16 V F-15... speeds can get as slow as 90 kts... that's the point in the viper that you have to start resetting stuff... :)

 

Of course.

 

Please note however that on these videos you can see those speeds only when the aircrafts are being inverted during a slow speed loop and not out of necesity to make another overshoot. In real life this is extremely dangerous and rarely used in real combat because if it fails, you are dead.

 

 

 

SO it's not really the game... it's the player I'm willing to bet! When you get shot down in BFM training.... it's rare that you can blame the jet for getting you killed... same can be said for the sim LOL!!

 

I don't blame the Jet, I blame the G model limiting me from flying the F-15 at slightly higher speeds (320 - 350 KIAS) than what I can now (250 - 280KIAS) without going into G-LOC.

 

TO ED

 

Please keep in mind that I am not asking you to make the F-15C make ridiculous 450 - 500 KIAS turns like it did in 1.02 with no troubles.

 

I am asking you to modifiy the G model to allow the pilot to handle more short term high G pulls and to pull 7 G sustained with a grey out. This will allow the F-15 to fly at the 350 - 320 KIAS range sustained for about 30 - 60 second time periods. It would also help alot of the pilot could regain its stamina faster.

 

Right now the pilot goes into G-LOC at 6 G's after 30 - 60 seconds and 7 G's after 15 s. This is more akin to a pilot flying without a flight suit than a military pilot sitting on an F-15C with TODAY's (not 1980's) TLLS equipment.

[Yo-Yo]

You should implement some kind of Atributes for the pilot like in some Roleplay Games.

 

When you create a new char you have 30 Points to spend on severals abilities like:

 

Strength

Health

Gun Aiming

 

So you can put 20 Points into Strength and your pilot can pull constantly 9 G for about 2 Minutes :)

 

I think it will be better if any virtual pilot passes physical ability test to get this score... ;)

[LiquidFuse]

The g tolerence depends on pilot healt and most important thing, on with rate the G grows. With a good trainning ( not a "competitors trainning") a pilot can be conscious above 7g without any probleme.

 

Thank you, I completely concurr with you.

 

I talked to a UK RAF pilot, which I won't name here, that lurks in HL from time to time and happened to be on last night. He flies in the F/A-18 and tells me that the G tolerances in FC 1.1 are more akin to personell classified with low G-tolerance.

 

The better pilots can withstand sustained 7 G turns without G-LOC and 8 G for short amounts of time. 9 G's is a very short pull and goes into G-LOC after 5 or so seconds with current F/A-18 TLLS equipment.

[SUBS17]

I think the g-modelling is great in FC, I think theres also a difference between partial blackout and complete unconciousness. I'm pretty sure lockon FC models both. There is also some g-limitations on the airframe itself, the F-16 is prone to this. I saw a documentary about military air crash investigators and they had one case where an F-16s tail broke off while doing high g above 800kts. The pilot ejected and broke both arms and legs and was found submerged under his parachute. Since then the life jackets now auto inflate on contact with water.

[Drakkhen]

Balance at last

 

However, I will be making a few tracks soon to prove some of my points. The tracks will be fights against some of the best 27 pilots in HL, while I fly the F-15. You would be in a position to watch my flight tendencies and judge for yourself if its a situation of careless yanking or simply G limitations pressed on the F-15 pilot that cause him to lose.

To me, the game is at last balanced. I use to play MiG and I was amazed to see how F15s were able to take turns at corner speed for minutes ending face to face or in my six.

When I watched the replays, I noticed the MiG didn't brought me over 6G during these boring "merry-go-round" sequences while the Eagle was keeping its 8.5-9G circle brightly. So I waited for 1.1 to implement Gs to bring back this to balance and I am just satisfied. Yes I also can experience LOCs but since the MiG slips a bit more through air than the Eagle does, I keep experiencing less Gs thant F15's pilot and that's just fair. Facing Eagles and Flankers remains a match but I don't get that "ahead" anymore.

It also forces Eagle drivers to rely on other BFMs than simple circling. I like that.

 

Abour Groove's idea, you also can make GLOC resistance dependent on combined flight hours in pilot's log, that would give it more importance, but there still are cheaters sometimes. Same standard for everyone's just fine.

[LiquidFuse]

To me, the game is at last balanced. I use to play MiG and I was amazed to see how F15s were able to take turns at corner speed for minutes ending face to face or in my six.

When I watched the replays, I noticed the MiG didn't brought me over 6G during these boring "merry-go-round" sequences while the Eagle was keeping its 8.5-9G circle brightly.

 

Right, and I complained about this during 1.02. Eagles were abusing G's and making cartoony turns combined with rudder and flaps pulling 10 G's and getting everyone's 6oc because the late model allowed this. In addition, please note that in 1.02, pilots were turning their Eagles at 500+ KIAS deliberately without G-LOC, which is absolute crap.

 

Now its completely the opposite, the only way for the Eagle to even put up a fight is by flying with 35% of fuel (4000 - 5000 pounds), with FULL flaps down doing 150 knots stall turns with your stick about to snap off due to shaking.

 

Sure, anyone can contest that you can use boom and zoom tactics (and I do), but sooner or later you will have to slow down to ridiculous speeds in order to get a good gun shot that is not head on when fighting the Flanker.

 

What I'm asking is simply for the pilots to withstand not 8, not 9, but an acceptable 7 G's as per sources and centrifuge training done on USAF pilots. At 7 G's the Eagle can mantain a 350 - 320 KIAS as necessary to combat the slow speed high turn rate of the Flanker.

 

Ignore this, and the Flanker will be become the F-22 of Lo-Mac skies...

[Ice]

I found some interesting reading Centrifuge Training

 

Some notes..

 

"The minimum standard for the course is 7 G for 15 seconds, which is an accepted norm throughout the world."

 

"One of the important results of high-G research is the demonstration that subjects could be trained to tolerate high-G loads for prolonged periods (9-G up to 45 sec)"

 

Currently in Lomac (test track supplied) at 10 seconds over 6 Gz, greying out starts to occur. By 25 seconds complete blackout.

 

Personally I dont worry about the accuracy of Combat flight sims as much as some. I also dont limit myself to one aircraft so if i think the Su27 for instance has an advantage I will fly it. My comeback when someone has a complaint is allways "Its the same for both players. However in this instance it might be worth considering upping the tolerances just a little :icon_jook

[Phil_C6]

Hi men

Everybody think that the new G effects are very well, i think this too (i have buy 1.1 many for this) but i think that we must hear Knell because a real fighter pilot knows how many G can be take.

 

Yoyo how many time we have to need in the actual model for the pilot regain his stamina?

 

Have a good day @+

[Drakkhen]

To devs: Does the brutality of G variation count in time to LOC?

I mean that it seems normal (to me) that a pilot breaking violently looses control faster than a pilot tightening an already engaged turn. In real world, the 90s suits still had a response delay.

 

In fact, I like the way Gs work currently since I use that to get rid of sticky enemies (bringing them to 600-700km/h and force them barrelling, which leads to LOC very quickly and gives opportunity to disengage).

[Cobra360]

If I may take this topic in a slightly different direction but still in respect to G-force. That is the issue of G-force on the airframe nevermind the pilot.

 

Let me explain. IRL if the MiG-29 is fitted with external fuel tanks it is limited to 4G flight due to stress on the wings, pylons and the tanks themselves. If you exceeded 4G you could cause serious structeral of fatigue damage to your plane. If the external tanks are then empty but still on the wings the allowable G-limit goes back up I think but not sure how far.

 

The F-16 for example I know for fact that when its fitted with underwing tanks its limited to 7G until they are empty or punched off and the pilot is then free to go to 9G if he/she wishes. I'd imagine a very similar limit is in place for the F-15 and it's external tanks.

 

AAMs as far as I know have little to no effect on the G-limit of the aircraft except if the pylons are not rated for high G wing loading. In US aircraft and a lot of NATO planes, the fitting of air to ground weapons limits the fighter to 6-6.5G depending if the fighter has the power to make a high G turn while carrying a heavy weapon load.

 

The Russian MiG-29 and Su-27 family are designed to be over G'ed to a certain extent like you can do in FC. But the F-15 is not ment to go above 9G and I have heard of RL cases where pilots have exceeded the G-limit on the F-15 and they require a lot of work after such a work out.

 

In the A-10 and Su-25 I find they are modeled well as thier RL limits are 7.5G and 6.5G for a clean config and when the weapons are loaded you a lucky to exceed 4-5G in both aircraft. I only have 1.02 but I find the G-limits on the MiG-29C and Su-33 overly generous when carrying A2G weapons.

 

In Falcon 4 when you exceed 6G with A2G weapons you can hear the wings and pylons groaning under the strain and when it come to releasing your bombs afterwards you are lucky if they are willing to leave the jet. It a feature I quite like and seeing as FC is modeling damage as realistically as possible it may as well be put it. Just one more thing to think about when releasing bombs, thats all we need. :D LOL

[Ice]

Cobra360 This thread has NOTHING to do with Airframes. This is SPECIFICALLY to do with pilots.

This is to do with 1 v 1 Guns fights.

 

So please stay on the subject.

 

Drakkhen, If you watch the track I made you will see I eased into 6Gz as lightly as I could specifically for this reason.

[SUBS17]

g limits include the airframe as well

[Ice]

g limits include the airframe as well

 

Airframes however do not blackout, and im sure if you read the intial post that is what this thread is about.

 

How airframes handle Gz is a totally different subject and should be posted on its own thread.

[Cobra360]

I'm well aware of the topic and I have already commented on it in the link in the first post of this thread. But seeing as the thread is called flight envelope issues when using full G effects I saw an oppertunity to include it here instead of creating another thread for my point which I think is fairly valid.

[LiquidFuse]

I'm well aware of the topic and I have already commented on it in the link in the first post of this thread. But seeing as the thread is called flight envelope issues when using full G effects I saw an oppertunity to include it here instead of creating another thread for my point which I think is fairly valid.

 

I completely agree that its relevant and valid.

 

However, for the sake of simplicity of the thread (quite complex already) and making it as short as possible (quite long already), I agree that its best if we concentrate on the G issue affecting only the pilots for now. The thread is quite contested with the dev's taking very careful steps towards a decision to modify the model and other players here defending it against those that feel it is overdone.

 

I personally will keep all my attention to the Pilot g-tolerance issue since this directly affects (in some cases destroys) online gameplay for some F-15C pilots.

 

Cheers. :beer:

[SUBS17]

Airframes however do not blackout, and im sure if you read the intial post that is what this thread is about.

 

How airframes handle Gz is a totally different subject and should be posted on its own thread.

 

 

It has relevance because g-limits are important for preventing damage to the airframe. At high speeds, high g can break an aircraft in half. The F-16s g limiter is 9gs but at less than 9gs at high speed 800kts+ the tail will probably break off. BTW pilots can sustain 9g in an F-16 at corner speed with out that happening.

[LiquidFuse]

Heres a link to an interesting Power Point briefing for Navy pilots.

 

http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/GTIP.PPT

 

Cheers!

[Cobra360]

Thats a good insight and slightly light hearted view towards Gs. I thought USN Hornets were limited to 7.5G and only the Hornets exported to Switzerland were the only Hornets cleared to 9G by the FCS.

 

I did not realise the Combat Edge vest was so effective that it will let experienced pilots pull 8G without straining, but it did not state for how long. If thats the case then game models G very heavily. Or it's data is from de-classified 1980 results when Combat Edge was not around.

 

I'm not to well up on the sort of G-equipment Russian pilots use but I'd imagine it's in a similar class seeing as their top end fighters can reach 11 or 12G even for only a few seconds. Thats got to be a hell of a strain for the pilots.

[LiquidFuse]

The part where they discuss the 8G limit for relaxed G tolerance is a hypothetical case of a pilot withstanding 6 G's, prepping himself with lower G turns to get his heart rate up before the first high G pull.

 

I have read and heard from several pilots recently that they have flown at 7G with their suit inflated and not have to strain at all or very little. The more I talk and read on the subject, the more I hear that the G limit that USAF pilots do talk about with some "fear" is 9 G's. Aparently this is extremely hard to achieve and mantain without A-LOC unless at top leg and abdominal shape coupled with the best strain manuever (G-Hook) and the best G-suit available.

 

The F-16 keeps popping up and its "magic" seat with 30* degree rotation. lol :icon_lol:

[Drakkhen]

Aerobatics pilots can take more than 9Gs without G-suit frequently but for very brief instants. I prefer not to imagine effects on vessels and organs under maintained constraints without equipment.

 

The point here, regarding GLOC and not airframe stress, is more a game-play issue. IMHO, considering an average pilot, good enough but not this perfect, the current G effects seem to act and balance game-play pretty well. Many 1.02 pilots used to tighten their maneuvers without any consideration of G limits (I've seen some stress their plane beyond rational structural limits) and 1.1 brings some temperance to it. That's just fine.

 

I guess a good pilot, IRL or in virtual world, is a pilot who can adapt himself to situations. Since it's far from impossible to win a dog with an F15, I don't see much to argue about.

[LiquidFuse]

The point here, regarding GLOC and not airframe stress, is more a game-play issue. IMHO, considering an average pilot, good enough but not this perfect, the current G effects seem to act and balance game-play pretty well. Many 1.02 pilots used to tighten their maneuvers without any consideration of G limits (I've seen some stress their plane beyond rational structural limits) and 1.1 brings some temperance to it. That's just fine.

 

1.02 operated in the exact opposite spectrum as 1.1. The change was so dramatic in fact, that the average turning speed for the Eagle went down from 350 - 450 KIAS (1.02) to 280 - 250 KIAS (1.1). Being tired of watching players doing loopies at 500+ KIAS (I hated this) without blacking out will surely give an itch to any realism "junkie" like myself and other pilots.

 

On the 1.1 spectrum, the Eagle can't do sustained 500+ KIAS turns at 10G's anymore, which is great! But by the same token, it can't turn at 350 - 320 KIAS for more than a few seconds either. The latter range is where the Eagle turns best. So now the Eagle is forced to fly at lower speeds by necessity to keep its pilot from going into G-LOC.

 

In short, the Eagle fights at 70-80% of its total turn rate in FC 1.1, 100% sustained turning capacity is not achievable anymore.

 

So, the devs will need to do 1 of the following:

 

1 - Bring up the G-tolerances to a degree where the Eagle pilot can sustain a turn at its turning speed of 350 KIAS without going into G-LOC.

 

2 - Modify the Eagle's FM to allow 100% turning capacity at a lower speed. In other words, this would be lowering the turning speed of the Eagle to a speed range that the pilot can hold in FC without G-LOC.

 

Please keep in mind that option #2 will cause the Eagle to fly more like a Flanker than a real Eagle, and as such it would be unrealistic.

 

I guess a good pilot, IRL or in virtual world, is a pilot who can adapt himself to situations. Since it's far from impossible to win a dog with an F15, I don't see much to argue about.

 

You're right, its not impossible.

 

But think about this:

 

For a Flanker pilot, how unpleasant would it be for him or her to have to fly the Flanker at high speed fights to win because the FM didnt allow accurate and proper slow speed turning?

 

If this were the case, you would see this forum flooded with critical posts claiming that the Flanker sucks, crying outrage because its a Russian sim not properly modelling its own bird.

 

Fair is fair gentlemen, all planes from all sides have to perform how they're meant to perform, not only as well as a G-limitation lets it.

[Yo-Yo]

As I promised I've dug out some values from AnPetrovich.These are time limits to blackout (not to unconciousness) for the certain g-values for the fresh pilot.

6 - 70 s

7 - 40 s

8 - 22 s

9 - 12 s

So if you get blackout faster you pull the stick too fast.

And now the pilots can estimate our "medium pilot" ability to withstand the G-load.

Unfortunately I could not pull the refreshing time from the author because this function is very complicated and depends on several factors... :)

[D-Scythe]

Thanks :) You guys are amazing.

[Pilotasso]

As I promised I've dug out some values from AnPetrovich.These are time limits to blackout (not to unconciousness) for the certain g-values for the fresh pilot.

6 - 70 s

7 - 40 s

8 - 22 s

9 - 12 s

So if you get blackout faster you pull the stick too fast.

And now the pilots can estimate our "medium pilot" ability to withstand the G-load.

Unfortunately I could not pull the refreshing time from the author because this function is very complicated and depends on several factors... :)

 

what does that differ to the current G modeling? or you actualy already used this?

[Phil_C6]

Hey men

As I promised I've dug out some values from AnPetrovich.These are time limits to blackout (not to unconciousness) for the certain g-values for the fresh pilot.

6 - 70 s

7 - 40 s

8 - 22 s

9 - 12 s

 

Yoyo you haven't understood he talked of gramms of Alcohol before blackout so it's a pretty good performance ;-) ok sorry i haven't can resist sorry :icon_redf

 

Yoyo thx for these data but how know the reserve of our pilot?

The best way sould be to have a sound of breath with a rythm faster or slower in function of tiredness you don't think?

Yesterday i discuted with a real fighter pilot and he said me than at 7G he hasn't no "grey out"

I hope he'll post here soon

 

Good evening @+