bflagg Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 Guys.. I played online last night and got way confused on reading the radar mfd.. (I ended up shooting down my own team member twice!). For example, when in TWS mode, I can see two targets (my ECM OFF) (little aircraft carats with a 1 and a 2 over the symbol) Ok so I know what that means, but how can I identify whether it's friend or foe? A team member maybe flying a SU or MIG, so how can I tell it it's my team or not? Thanks, Brett
Cobra360 Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 And that is why the F-15 needs IFF. Sorry I can't help. I don't play online due to my laggy 1Mb/s connection.
Hitman IF Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 on the TWS radar display, friendlies have a dot, and enemies a dash at one end of the carats. This is quite difficult to see in TWS mode, you may need to zoom in a bit to see it. ---SVBS squad is playing Lock On, ADF/TAW and Typhoon now at www.svbs.co.uk !---
Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 also lock em up and then get awacs to declare, if awacs is available, that will tell you if its friendly or foe...
bflagg Posted July 12, 2005 Author Posted July 12, 2005 on the TWS radar display, friendlies have a dot, and enemies a dash at one end of the carats. This is quite difficult to see in TWS mode, you may need to zoom in a bit to see it. thanks guys for your reply... Hitman I'll give that a go tonight if there is anyone on thru hyperlobby. (it was real dead last night - US EST) Thanks, Brett
Prophet_169th Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 And that is why the F-15 needs IFF. Sorry I can't help. I don't play online due to my laggy 1Mb/s connection. The dots and rectangles isnt IFF?
609_Recon Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 hehe yeah, this just isn't an online thing :) We're still in training, but look forwaed to meeting you online
Cobra360 Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 The dots and rectangles isnt IFF? I never noticed before. I gave the F-15 a break a long time after discovering the joys of the Su-27 and the mud movers. And I never play on-line, which is just as well really considering I did not notice this feature. Would have annoyed a lot of friendlies. I just use the NCTR feature in STT and then go to TWS mode. But now I know better.
GGTharos Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 The dots and rectangles isnt IFF? There's no IFF on the locked target, where the real F-15 has an EID cue. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
bflagg Posted July 13, 2005 Author Posted July 13, 2005 GGTharos.... I vaguely remember SK simple guide to HOJ and ranges and I can't find it... Do you know where it is? ..ie..how far can I tell a target is that is jamming me so when I shoot off a 120 against a HOJ I'm not just wasting missles.. I seem to vaguely remember it has somehting to do with how many dots are showing.. (F15 'natch) thx... Thanks, Brett
S77th-GOYA Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 How many dots are showing is the method for the Russkie RWR. On the 15 you need to judge distance from the center of TEWS. That is, of course, if the target is spiking you. Otherwise, there's no way to judge a jammer's range until burnthrough.
bflagg Posted July 13, 2005 Author Posted July 13, 2005 Hi Goya.. not only do you keep knocking me out the sky... you tell me there is no hope? :) center of tews? I know what the center of tews is , but I don't know what you mean in this context.... If I'm at radar range (tws) of 20nm and I have a jam showing, and I switch radar range to 40nm and the jam signal doesn't change on the mfd... how can I get some indication as to how far then? (can't by your account) when I look at tews..there is indication of light spiking activity.... So I gotta guage detection of signal strength against eyeball power and MFD is useless? also a suggestion on last nights map..... the take off field I was always stuck with was 57km away... It would always take 10-15min to get to the fight...is there a way you can adjust for this in future maps? thx... Thanks, Brett
S77th-GOYA Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 The radar display won't help. No matter what range you have selected. Only the TEWS gives any kind of range information on a jammer. Try this: In the mission editor, place yourself and a bandit with a jammer going directly toward each other. You can know the range exactly in the editor. Take a screenshot as soon as you start the mission. Now go back and change the range and do it again. compare the difference on TEWS. Also, do it with all types of planes. They have different strengths of radar so they will appear different at the same ranges. Especially the MiG. Distance to engagement is luck of the draw, most times. Except for MiGs who generally get placed the closest.
bflagg Posted July 13, 2005 Author Posted July 13, 2005 Thanks.. I'll give that a go... Thanks, Brett
Pilotasso Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 Actualy theres a way to judge a distance to target without a spike. But it only works in certain circunstances. For example lets suppose your flying high and you get into HOJ mode. Youll have a direction, if hes against the gound obviously he cant fly 20 miles under it, but relatively low above it, how low you cant tell but you can assume a range for a missile shot with only a few thousand feet as an aprox error. This is why I fly at angels 25 most of the time. When I get a HOJ in a given angle into the ground I know there will be just a few seconds untill I can fire a missile. Sometimes when I spot a HOJ in the same level as I am, I drop low, when his direction to me gives a certain angle up, I know he cant be more than 10 miles high , the estimation of range is then donne by mental triangluation based on the angle up, and gives a hint how much time you have left untill you can fire a missile and get ready to sneak upon him from an unexpected angle. All this requires experience of course, dont expect to use your calculator in usefull time! .
bflagg Posted July 13, 2005 Author Posted July 13, 2005 This I will have to try as well. any math genius out there can give a range estimates for us 15 fliers? example senario: F15 at 25k Scanning at 0-5k 5-10K? Obviously the radar is looking downwards, but how far away is the 0-5k scanning range hitting the ground? 7-15nm out? The only thing I know about Geometry is square things don't go into round holes. I'm guessing we need to know the angle of radar cone downwards deflection to start.. Anyone from ED know (or the other stars of the show.. beta testers!)? Thanks, Brett
Pilotasso Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 In order to know wich angle you tilting the radar at, you need to know how tight is the radar view cone is or else you get infinite solutions. But bear in mind when your scanning that mark of 0-5K feet on your radar screen, you automaticaly know at wich horizontal range that aplies to anyway. Just look where your target designator is. If the target blips on radar or you see his ECM pattern with the designator at 20 miles, hes somwhere on the 20 mile range in that altitude interval. If theres nothing its because hes not on the view cone, wich means nobody is at that range or hes there but your not looking at him. If you tilt the radar up and get an ECM pattern then you cant judge the distance at all since the more leveled the contact is to you, the greater the margin of incertainty of his range. So get as much different altitude to him as possible. Be carefull of contrail. .
GGTharos Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 Kinematic ranging on Jamming targets is not implemented in 1.1. It may be implemented in 1.2, but no promises. Currently th ways people have described are adequate for guessing range - and you knwo what, if you wnt to fly a jet fighter, you MUST be able to do your math. An angle of 45 deg means that your distance to the target is equal to the altitude difference between you and him. At 25k vs. someoen at 5k that's 20k. Grab a claculator and make yourself some tables. ;) 1nm~=6000'. Additionally, you can see an aircraft within 15-16nm, so if you lock him up in HoJ and stare at the TD, you'll eventually see a little dot pop up inside it. At that point he's at 15-16nm, and from here on you guess the closure (say 800kts, fairly typicaly, sometimes 1200kts) and that will give you a time in seconds to firing at your desired range. 600kts=10nm/min. So with a closure of 800kts, from 16nm, you'd expect him to be at 10nm in about 15-20sec or so. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
S77th-GOYA Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 ...how far away is the 0-5k scanning range hitting the ground? 7-15nm out? At which scan range? 10, 20, 40? How wide (tall) is your scan? Do you know he's low or just lower than you? If he's scanning you, use your TEWS. If he's not, wait for burnthrough and he's a dead duck.
Pilotasso Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 if you wnt to fly a jet fighter, you MUST be able to do your math. To be a pilot requires to be smart, they demand certain capabilities. However if you start thinking while your fighting, thats the start of the end. Remember "if you think your dead" Do actual math on your pit is only convenient while in cruise flight, or when you cant eject because your over a city and must judge the residual gliding distace. .
bflagg Posted July 13, 2005 Author Posted July 13, 2005 At which scan range? 10, 20, 40? How wide (tall) is your scan? Do you know he's low or just lower than you? If he's scanning you, use your TEWS. If he's not, wait for burnthrough and he's a dead duck. For example.. I was on your board last night... I was at 10-15K. TWS enabled.. 120 in BVR mode.....Music off. range was 40nm... scan height = 0 - 30K (if I remember right). from scan height 0-15k nothing..... once I went to approx 0-30k then I would get Jamming.... SO I'm figuring 15-30k is the approx target (up to 15k higher than I), but at what distance? (approx obviously) I figure some trig would work here... but I don't remember.. It's been years. Cone deg deflection would be required as GGTharos suggests... Pilotasso.. I couldn't disagree with you more..... you don't have to be exact.. just rough estimates would get you in the fight. Thanks, Brett
GGTharos Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 Pilotasso: Complete, utter, and total BS. Anyone who gives such advice to a compat pilot should be immidiately promoted to some radar post in Alaska doing a job where he or she can do no harm ;) bflagg: you get the angle from your HUD. Use the pitch lines, then you'll have the angle from you to him. The problem here is that you don't know his altitude either, only his angle from you, so again the range is an estimate, but it gets better as you get closer (because the angle becomes steeper and you can better estimate his altitude) .. as you already found out, by moving the antenna you -might- be able to guess his elevation, but again - without range provided you truly -are- doing a lot of guesswork. Not much you can do about that, just use as much of the info all your sensors give you and DO NOT FOCUS on a single target. While you're focusing on this guy, another one's sneaking in. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Pilotasso Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 Maybe I didnt make myself understand or your the ones to be illuded. When your dodging missiles whos the best at it? the one who has the experience and instint or the one who tries to calculate de best getaway geometry? Once in a knife fight all calculations are over and time to react, not calculate. In the adrenaline rush who can calculate anything? youll freeze. "oops my brain has hit a bad sector" Online the only calculations I make is when Im well outside visual range and then half of the times I use experience only. Once within 15 miles I simply cant estimate anything on rough mathematics and instinct takes over. Things change so fast by the time I end estimating anything the data is already obsolete (meaning most likely Im dead). I see alot of online pilots who once merge and loose sights of me they usualy stop calculating where I should be and disengage. And then I catch them from behind. .
GGTharos Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 Maybe you should read the threat again in that case; thisis about BVR, specifically about ranges such that RANGE INFORMATION is denied by a jammer. Oh and, by the way - knife fighting involves both thinking and nerves of steel. If you go in without a game plan, and if you don't change this game plan as circumstances dictate, you just lost tothe guy who DID use his noggin. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
S77th-GOYA Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 For example.. I was on your board last night... I was at 10-15K. TWS enabled.. 120 in BVR mode.....Music off. range was 40nm... scan height = 0 - 30K (if I remember right). from scan height 0-15k nothing..... once I went to approx 0-30k then I would get Jamming.... SO I'm figuring 15-30k is the approx target (up to 15k higher than I), but at what distance? (approx obviously) I figure some trig would work here... but I don't remember.. It's been years. Cone deg deflection would be required as GGTharos suggests... Pilotasso.. I couldn't disagree with you more..... you don't have to be exact.. just rough estimates would get you in the fight. From this example you know: There's no one below you or at equal altitude within 40nm. (Depending on how low you started your scan. There could have been someone low and close unless you brought it all the way down.) (Or behind a hill) If the jam first appeared when the top of the scale reached 30, then you've found the plane (geometrical plane) that the bandit is in and the direction to bandit. So really, you know the vector to the bandit. He's on a line from your A/C to a point 40nm away and 30k above ground. Before you start doing any math, just lock the jam. Your target box will show you the line to bandit. You know he's on the line but you still don't know how far he is. You don't even know that he's within 40nm. He could be at 60nm at 37.5k or 20nm at 22.5k. (Assuming the vector points to 15k above you at a 40nm range. The math is off, it assumes a 1:1 ratio or 45% angle, which it's not, but it illustrates the point) Since you don't know his altitude, you can't extrapolate his range. One thing that might come into play here is whether or not he is contrailing. That kind of thing in combination with TEWS info should narrow down your idea of where he is. Like, he can't be flying underground. I'm not sure if this is what Pilotasso is trying to say, but in a combat situation these things need to be second nature. Look at TEWS, get a general idea of range, if there's anything else that can help you fine tune that general idea, it needs to come to your mind quickly or you're lost. If you're trying to figure out the angle to the ground from an a/c at 25k to a point on the ground at 40nm, an HOJ ER might cut that calculation short.
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