Mark points and Mavericks?

[RodBorza]

You want to slave TGP to Steerpoint.. not slave all to SPI.. to acheive autoslew to cycled steerpoints.

 

StrongHarm,

 

Not wanting to get into a fight, but now you got me confused... If not so I was already...

Anyway, can the MAV autoslew? The Mark points feature is great. Imagine my surprise when using it for the second time and then finding out that the TGP moved for the next Mark point each time I moved the Mark Point Up or Down. However, in order to launch MAVs, I've always have to slave the current MAV to TGP, and then fire.

 

The sequence goes as follows:

1) Create Mark points with TGP;

2) Change AAP to MARK;

3) TGP page selected on right MFCD;

4) Set HUD as the SOI (very important for me to not ever touch the rocker button on the UFC);

5) With DMS UP or Down, select the desired Mark point. TGP will beautifully follow;

6) Select MAV with DMS Left or Right (or DSMS page as desired);

7) With target in TGP sights, slave all to TGP with China Hat FORWARD Long;

8 )Change MFCD page from TGP to MAV;

9) Wait lock on (with a little TMS Up Short help)

10) Fire.

 

In order to launch a second MAV I always have to TGP page and do it again (step 7 onwards). Is there anyway, once targets marked with TGP, MAV page selected on MFCD, changing from one Mark point to the next, (with HUD as SOI), will move the MAV seeker head automatically? Am I missing something here?

Edited April 27, 2011 by RodBorza

[nomdeplume]

Is there anyway, once targets marked with TGP, MAV page selected on MFCD, changing from one Mark point to the next, (with HUD as SOI), will move the MAV seeker head automatically? Am I missing something here?

 

You don't need to use, or even be carrying, the TGP. The TGP is just another sensor, like the TAD and TDC. Steerpoints are also regarded as a 'sensor', in as much as they can be designated as the SPI.

 

'china hat fwd long' slews all sensors to the current SPI. You can tell the current SPI by looking at the bottom left corner of the HUD. Potential SPIs are TAD (hooked object on the TAD), TDC (HUD designation cursor), TGP (targeting pod), MAV (Maverick seeker) and STPT (current steerpoint).

 

That last one is the relevant one here. If you're in MARK mode, when you cycle waypoints you'll be cycling your current steerpoint through the mark points.

 

If you've used 'china hat fwd long' then all your sensors (including Maverick, and I think TGP, but see above :D) will slew to the designated markpoint. Each time you change the steerpoint, the slaved sensors will slew to point to the new location of the SPI.

 

So, it's very easy to get the Maverick seeker to slew to your mark points.

 

The only trick is that as soon as you do anything with the Maverick seeker (slew it somewhere else, or lock a target) you've unslaved it from the SPI. You've told it "stop following the SPI, and follow this thing you're pointing at". So once you loose the missile, you'll need to do 'china hat fwd long' again to get the next missile slaved to the SPI.

 

Also, be sure to understand the difference between SPI and SOI.

 

P.S. Why don't you want to use the rocker on the UFC to change steerpoint?

[159th_Viper]

...Is there anyway, once targets marked with TGP, MAV page selected on MFCD, changing from one Mark point to the next, (with HUD as SOI), will move the MAV seeker head automatically?

 

 

No

 

 

Am I missing something here?

 

 

When you cycle between Markpoints with DMS/UFC rocker switch, you are effectively cycling between steerpoints/alternating the default Steerpoint.

 

It is the attendant functionality of the TGP that allows it to 'snap'/change view to the Current default Steerpoint as you cycle between them. No such functionality exists for the AGM-65, hence the necessity to manually slave (CH FWD L) each selected AGM-65 to Steerpoint.

Edited April 27, 2011 by 159th_Viper

[latearrival]

Seriously.. why are you arguing with me while I'm trying to help you? <boggle> I ask this in the kindest way possible...

 

(An aside from a newcomer to the scene, and in case it makes you feel any better when people seem to argue with you SH - arguments in this forum are actually quite helpful - I learn a lot from the banter about why a particular way is better than another way, instead of just reading 'do it this way').

[StrongHarm]

I encourage you to read my original outline on the method and try it out. That's the way it works. I don't mind being questioned or even corrected, but at the very least try it out to see if it's accurate first. There's healthy debate, then there's deciding that it's fun to contradict me as often as possible as nondeplum has a habit of doing. That headache will nullify the effort. I would have dropped the subject after giving the correct method, and hope someone benefited regardless of the persistent contradictions, but I do care about the end user having a good experience. I rarely say anything off the cuff. I do the proper research.

 

I say this with all kindness and patience.

 

I've tested it once again and found it to be accurate. If I'm wrong or have caused a misunderstanding, I'll give a prompt apology.

[Tabs]

StrongHarm,

 

Your method works but I think your explanation of what's happening isn't right, as nomdeplume was getting at... (if I'm wrong, let me know how, but this is how I understand it and how I've used it in the sim)

 

The point nomdeplume is making is that China Forward Long is not a "slave to TGP" command. China Forward Long actually slaves all sensors to the current SPI. That's why your method even works - the SPI is set by default to the currently active steerpoint/markpoint. (you will have to set it to this mode with TMS Down Long if the SPI was manually set prior to this by the way)

 

When you do DMS Up/Down Short with HUD as SOI to cycle the markpoints you're actually moving your SPI between them. (watch the wedding cake on the TAD) The SPI will automatically move to the currently active steerpoint/markpoint and the TGP will move with it if it's in the slave to steerpoint mode (China Aft Long). When you do China Forward Long you're actually slaving the Maverick seeker to the SPI, not "to the TGP". Once you have your markpoints created, you don't even need the TGP visible for any of this, you can just flip between the markpoints and hit China Forward Long after each missile is fired.

 

This is the procedure as I understand it:

 

1. Mark your targets for the Mav attack using the TGP and markpoints (TMS Right Short)

2. Set AAP dial to markpoint mode.

3. Set SPI to steerpoint (TMS Down Long)

4. Set HUD as SOI (Coolie Up Short)

5. Select desired markpoint (DMS Up/Down Short)

6. Slave all sensors to SPI (China Forward Long)

7. Lock Mav seeker (TMS Up short)

8. Fire the Mav.

9. Repeat steps 5-9 for the remaining markpoints/targets.

 

Ryan

Edited April 27, 2011 by Tabs

[asparagin]

(An aside from a newcomer to the scene, and in case it makes you feel any better when people seem to argue with you SH - arguments in this forum are actually quite helpful - I learn a lot from the banter about why a particular way is better than another way, instead of just reading 'do it this way').

 

:thumbup: This works in this forum because of the large percentage of open-minded users.

[-Ice]

I'm all confused now. StrongHarm, you and I must go up one time and you walk me through this step. I learn better by doing than by reading.

[nomdeplume]

There's healthy debate, then there's deciding that it's fun to contradict me as often as possible as nondeplume has a habit of doing.

If it is habitual then that's entirely coincidental, and I apologise if you feel like I'm harrassing you. I'm not trying to contradict you. I also never said your method doesn't work. It does work and can be useful (since the TGP has a higher resolution than the Maverick sensor). What I was responding to was this fairly direct statement; I've added the bold and underline:

 

The MAV won't move with the markpoints, but the TGP will. So you have to slave the MAV to TGP.

 

A few other posts after that asked various questions about it etc., and, after testing it myself to be sure, I posted to clarify that you don't actually have to slave the Maverick to the TGP (which in turn is slaved to the steerpoint) in order to order to get it to follow your steerpoint.

 

Tabs posted the steps I was using (thanks Tabs!), but I'd suggest swapping step #5 and #6, i.e. slave everything to the SPI before stepping through the steerpoints, so you can see the Maverick seeker slewing around as you do it.

[StrongHarm]

Personal methods may differ and healthy discourse is what makes this forum shine. This isn't about what altitude to engage with guns though, this is about slewing the mav via markpoints, and the steps of using avionics.

 

Thank you Tabs for the thoughtful and thorough post. I see what you're getting at. Below are the points of contradiction in discussion. Also, I created two tracks; MavAutoslew and MavNOautoslew. The first track shows my method, the second shows the other method. In MavAutoslew you can see the mav seeker moving as I cycle steerpoints. In MavNOautoslew (where I don't use china aft long) you can see that the mav seeker stays in one position as I cycle through steerpoints.

 

I personally slave TGP to Steerpoint and use only the pod to identify targets, as I have a longstanding personal aversion to blue on blue.

 

For further discussion on mav acquisition and employment see my previous post on the topic.

MARK and then cycle each mark point, slave Mav to mark point, then fire

To reiterate; you must China AFT Long to slave TGP to steerpoint, then slave Mav to TGP, before you can cycle marks and watch your mav autoslew.

You don't need to slave the Maverick to the TGP at all. You need to use 'china hat fwd long' to slew all sensors to the current SPI. That's all. If your SPI is set to STPT, then when you cycle through them the Maverick (and everything else) will automatically slew to it.

Your way does work of course, but it adds an extra layer of indirection which can be helpful (if you want to e.g. use the TGP to fine-tune the target point rather than the Maverick sensor) but it's not necessary for the task of 'make the maverick sensor point to the steerpoint'.

MavAutoSlew.trk

MavNOautoslew.trk

[nomdeplume]

In MavNOautoslew (where I don't use china aft long) you can see that the mav seeker stays in one position as I cycle through steerpoints.

That's because when you're doing that, your TGP is set as the SPI.

 

I took control after you'd switched between the mark points a few times, set the STPT as SPI, and then switched between them a few times again. (I probably should've let the track run for longer after that, sorry. You'll need to get in fairly quick if you want to take over before the track ends.)

MavAutoSlew.trk

[StrongHarm]

Yes .. steerpoint must be SPI .. that is a given. When you CH AFT L that slaves your TGP to steerpoint and in turn it becomes SPI.

 

 

Truly.. I'm done. This is my fault for encouraging you. We won't be doing this again nomdeplume.

[nomdeplume]

Yes .. steerpoint must be SPI .. that is a given. When you CH AFT L that slaves your TGP to steerpoint and in turn it becomes SPI.

 

'China hat aft long' slaves the TGP to the steerpoint, but it doesn't change the SPI. In your 'no auto slew' track, you set the TGP as the SPI before creating the mark points (which incidentally, isn't necessary: mark points are created based on the SOI, not the SPI). You never reset it to the STPT. Therefore, when you use 'china hat fwd long' to command "slew everything to the SPI", the Maverick seeker is slewed to the TGP's target.

 

Since you didn't use 'china hat aft long' in that track, the TGP is just pointing wherever you left it, and isn't following the steerpoint. Thus, when you change steerpoint, no other system cares. The TGP stays where it was, and the Maverick (which is still slaved to the TGP, since the TGP is the SPI) stays put as well.

 

All I did was 'TMS down long' to set the STPT as the SPI. At that point, the Maverick slews to the new SPI (the steerpoint), and will slew to the new position each time you select a new steerpoint.

 

Truly.. I'm done.

I apologise if I seem argumentative. This is a fairly small technical detail, but I like fairly small technical details. Plus, I think it is worthwhile to properly understand the difference between 'china hat aft long' and 'china hat fwd long'. They do a similar thing, but with important differences.

 

Edit: here's a video demonstrating the process. Hopefully it'll be easier to follow for those who are visually-oriented. I didn't really leave enough time for the annotations, so you might need to pause it a few times to read everything.

Edited April 27, 2011 by nomdeplume

[latearrival]

This is the procedure as I understand it:

 

1. Mark your targets for the Mav attack using the TGP and markpoints (TMS Right Short)

2. Set AAP dial to markpoint mode.

3. Set SPI to steerpoint (TMS Down Long)

4. Set HUD as SOI (Coolie Up Short)

5. Select desired markpoint (DMS Up/Down Short)

6. Slave all sensors to SPI (China Forward Long)

7. Lock Mav seeker (TMS Up short)

8. Fire the Mav.

9. Repeat steps 5-9 for the remaining markpoints/targets.

 

 

Any tips for getting the maverick to lock when using this procedure?

 

I've just spent a few hours attempting/practicing this (on buildings) but each time I try and pickle at Step 8, within the DLZ, I get a launch inhibit error. I assumed that, when in range, the maverick would lock onto whatever was at the SPI as a result of Steps 5 to 7, but I just can't seem to get that lock.

[159th_Viper]

 

I've just spent a few hours attempting/practicing this (on buildings)

 

Use Force Correlate mode on buildings.

[Crescendo]

To anyone reading this thread who is not sure which way is up: nomdeplume AND StomgHarm are correct concerning their methods of auto-slewing Mavericks.

 

I had a quibble with StrongHarm's explanation of slaving MAV to TGP, which, due to poor wording on my part, made it seem like I thought his method didn't work at all. Apologies to StrongHarm and thanks to Viper for the nudge.

 

Editer's note - previous sentence that might cause undue confusion:

 

 

To anyone reading this thread who is not sure which way is up: nomdeplume is correct, listen to his instructions and explanations.

 

 

The only thing I would question is this:

 

'China hat aft long' slaves the TGP to the steerpoint' date=' but it doesn't change the SPI.[/quote']

Editor's note - the following block of text has been proved to contain errors and is thus tagged with spoilers to avoid confusion.China Hat Aft Long does not reset SPI to STPT, and therefore function (2) is incorrect:

 

China Hat Aft Long does slave the TGP to the steerpoint (STPT), but it also does change the SPI - if you have your current SPI set as something other than STPT (e.g. TGP, TAD, TDC, or whatever), China Hat Aft will change the SPI to STPT.

 

The best way of thinking about China Hat Aft Long is that is possesses two very useful functions: it (1) slaves the TGP to STPT, and (2) resets the SPI to STPT, thereby overriding whatever SPI you currently have set (TGP, TDC etc.).

 

From there you can use China Hat Forward Long and/or change the SPI to your hearts content depending on what you want to do.

 

Edited April 27, 2011 by Crescendo

[Joker_]

Just a quick aside to StrongHarm:

 

First, I wanted to thank you -- your posts in this forum have been universally helpful; indeed your contributions have probably been the most useful for me of all of them. Thank you for easing the learning process a bit.

 

I do hope the limitations of this kind of forum interaction doesn't tick you off too badly. Frankly, these battle-of-the-titans discussions/arguments are very valuable for the rest of us, since they are clearly coming from articulate, knowledgeable sources. I admire all the input thus far in this thread, and hope you will continue to interact in them. Even tho it may seem to get heated at times, that clearly is because of the passion for the subject, as opposed to the ego and silliness often seen in other flight sim forums. Thanks again.

 

-- Joker

[159th_Viper]

To anyone reading this thread who is not sure which way is up:

 

Both approaches are 100% correct: What you are seeing is merely two different approaches that achieve the same goal at the end of the day.

[Crescendo]

Just a quick aside to StrongHarm:

 

First, I wanted to thank you -- your posts in this forum have been universally helpful; indeed your contributions have probably been the most useful for me of all of them. Thank you for easing the learning process a bit.

 

I do hope the limitations of this kind of forum interaction doesn't tick you off too badly. Frankly, these battle-of-the-titans discussions/arguments are very valuable for the rest of us, since they are clearly coming from articulate, knowledgeable sources. I admire all the input thus far in this thread, and hope you will continue to interact in them. Even tho it may seem to get heated at times, that clearly is because of the passion for the subject, as opposed to the ego and silliness often seen in other flight sim forums. Thanks again.

 

-- Joker

 

Well said.

 

"Truth springs from argument amongst friends." - David Hume

[Crescendo]

Both approaches are 100% correct: What you are seeing is merely two different approaches that achieve the same goal at the end of the day.

 

OK, you might be right, but please explain something to me (as it looks like StrongHarm isn't coming back).

 

I have read all the posts very carefully, but I still don't understand when Strongharm says:

 

slave the mav to the TGP

 

What does this mean exactly? How does one slave MAV to TGP without using China Hat Forward Long? The the MAV cannot be slaved to the TGP by itself - it must always be slaved to the SPI with all of the other sensors too.

 

This may seem pedantic to some, but I think clarity matters when it comes to playing these sorts of games/simulations. Absolute clarity matters, doubly so to newer players.

 

If am ignorant of something, especially of how one would slave MAV to TGP in a mutually exclusive manner, please inform me! I always welcome learning something new.

[159th_Viper]

What does this mean exactly? How does one slave MAV to TGP without using China Hat Forward Long? The the MAV cannot be slaved to the TGP by itself - it must always be slaved to the SPI with all of the other sensors too.

 

The danger of quoting out of context :)

 

As far as I can tell, nowhere does Strongharm state that the MAV is slaved to the TGP without CH FWD L - reference to the command is merely omitted. See this post -

 

To reiterate; you must China AFT Long to slave TGP to steerpoint, then slave Mav to TGP, before you can cycle marks and watch your mav autoslew

 

'Slave Mav to TGP' accordingly means that the Mav sensor is being slaved to the TGP LOS which is also the Default Steerpoint as set with CH Aft L.

 

In one instance of argument the SPI is set via TGP LOS (Input via TMS FWD L): In the other instance of argument no SPI is set at all (No Input via TMS FWD L) - one rather relies on the 'default SPI' principle .......Understand that distinction and the veracity of both arguments are clear.

[nomdeplume]

China Hat Aft Long does slave the TGP to the steerpoint (STPT), but it also does change the SPI - if you have your current SPI set as something other than STPT (e.g. TGP, TAD, TDC, or whatever), China Hat Aft Long will change the SPI to STPT.

 

No it won't, and yes, I did just fire up the sim yet again to verify before I wrote this. :)

 

No track as it's trivial to do it yourself. I tried it with the TGP set as the SPI and with the HUD TDC set as the SPI.

 

This may seem pedantic to some, but I think clarity matters when it comes to playing these sorts of games/simulations. Absolute clarity matters, doubly so to newer players.

This is exactly why I posted in this thread, because what Strongharm was saying wasn't quite correct. However the method of using the TGP to 'sight' for the Mavericks he describes is valid, and arguably more useful than using the Maverick and waypoints alone.

[nemises]

 

Edit: here's a video demonstrating the process. Hopefully it'll be easier to follow for those who are visually-oriented. I didn't really leave enough time for the annotations, so you might need to pause it a few times to read everything.

 

Good video Nom, appreciate the time you took to make it ...will try to remember to book mark as a good reference for new pilots to understand a fundamental of the system.

[Crescendo]

No it won't, and yes, I did just fire up the sim yet again to verify before I wrote this. :)

 

Yes, you are correct. It does not reset the SPI back to STPT. That's what TMS AFT L is for. :doh:

 

I'm not sure how I came up with that idea as it clearly doesn't work that way. I should have checked in-game before I posted, but I erroneously decided to trust my memory (won't make that mistake again).

 

I'm going to put spoiler tags around the offending bits in my original post lest someone become confused.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Crescendo
Fixing spelling mistake.

[Crescendo]

The danger of quoting out of context :)

 

As far as I can tell, nowhere does Strongharm state that the MAV is slaved to the TGP without CH FWD L - reference to the command is merely omitted

 

Viper, that is what I'm objecting to. The MAV is being slaved to TGP, yes, but in saying that it skips explaining how CH FWD L actually slaves everything to SPI, not just MAV.

 

Glossing over this is not a problem when everyone understands what CH FWD L does, but in this case I felt it might be worth mentioning.

 

Perhaps I was a tad obtuse in making this point.

 

In one instance of argument the SPI is set via TGP LOS (Input via TMS FWD L): In the other instance of argument no SPI is set at all (No Input via TMS FWD L) - one rather relies on the 'default SPI' principle .......Understand that distinction and the veracity of both arguments are clear.

 

I don't disagree with any of this.