R-27EA in LOFC2?

[GGTharos]

Errr ... I think EtherealN is just saying the the code that the FC2 birds are based on places some limits in how much realism you can put into the sim, which is true.

 

Realism tweaks happened where it was possible to make them happen; I think most of us would like to see things like thrust vectoring behavior on R-73, launch speed making a difference in missile engagement ranges, radar modes, missile modes, etc etc etc. You get the idea.

 

Where realism isn't possible, you have to balance instead sometimes - it depends on what you're doing. For example, ECM is modeled extremely simply. If you look at A-10C, that's much better in terms of in-cockpit operation, but what you really care about is how it looks on your fighter's radar. In truth once the jammer fires, a battle of radar vs jammer commences and you basically either lose lock, or not - that would be the simplest of implementations.

 

Now the Eagle has a superior overall radar (antenna generally more resistant to jamming, more powerful processor, large antenna) so it gets to burn-through farther. That is the way ECCM is modeled in FC2. Realistically, the radar would be jumping through some hoops and trying to make your jammer go as crazy as it's trying to make the radar go.

[GGTharos]

I'd say that within the FC2 context it's reasonably balanced. Make the radars more realistic and things get slanted on the F-15 again, but you wouldn't get the same exchange ratio as you would against a SARH-only flanker. ARH do make a difference.

 

To be straight with you, do you think that a Su-27 with 6 R77's, 2 ET's and 2 R73's going 1 on 1 with a F-15 with 8 X15km range advantage 120's is an unbalanced contest??

[EtherealN]

Equal pilots, yes. It'll do well.

 

Just like with a good pilot and the broken ER's, the Flanker can go head-to-head with the F-15 even though his missiles are semiactive - because the missiles will get there quicker. He just needs to do it right. Good proverb: "If it's a fair fight, your tactics suck."

 

If you want complete balance, go F-15 vs F-15 or Flanker vs Flanker.

 

And to be honest - since you included a mod as an F-15 advantage (a mod that most servers disallow, btw), why not include Su-27's with the R-77's? Hell, by your logic the Flanker does have active missiles - because there's mods that do it!

[FLANKERATOR]

Question was for FC2 of course, there are lot of things we don't know about these warplanes in real, and that makes sense.

 

To me, even with R77's on the Flanker, the F-15 would still have the upper hand as having significant missile range advantage and more lethal BVR head on firepower, also having better climb rate and acceleration.

 

Equal pilots, The ER doesn't stand a chance against a 120 in FC2, thinking that because your ER is faster you gonna fool a decent eagle driver is ridiculous, indeed ARH do make a difference.

 

As for Yoda's mod, I've never said it has been allowed on servers, I said I wish it would have been, just like R77's under Flankers which is an official statement by KNAAPO and surely not by my logic.

[GGTharos]

Question was for FC2 of course, there are lot of things we don't know about these warplanes in real, and that makes sense.

 

There's plenty of stuff we do know though, if want we can talk about that in PM since it's probably OT for this thread.

 

To me, even with R77's on the Flanker, the F-15 would still have the upper hand as having significant missile range advantage and more lethal BVR head on firepower, also having better climb rate and acceleration.

 

Yes, but with reservations. I agree with you that yes, literally the F-15C has the advantage in FC2, but I would argue that the margin is actually somewhat slim. Better acceleration is barely useful in terms of missile combat in FC2 - it can get you into position faster, but the problem here is that the low guy can notch, come back around, shoot from a closer range and notch again. The high guy deals with an almost un-dodgeable ARH (I'm sure you could evade it in the right circumstances, but that's beside the point, bear with me) because his reward for those little maneuvers is a look-up shot that makes chaff almost useless, and shooting up where the high guy can barely maneuver while the missile retains plenty of speed.

 

In reality you'd have a nice range advantage from a high-speed shot. The flanker's radar can take up to 10 sec to lock up a target, so the flanker pilot couldn't just sit there in the notch, come out, and re-attack right away.

There's plenty of things that 'even it out' compared to RL, if you catch my drift.

 

Equal pilots, The ER doesn't stand a chance against a 120 in FC2, thinking that because your ER is faster you gonna fool a decent eagle driver is ridiculous, indeed ARH do make a difference.

 

As for Yoda's mod, I've never said it has been allowed on servers, I said I wish it would have been, just like R77's under Flankers which is an official statement by KNAAPO and surely not by my logic.

 

I'm pretty sure they had to do modifications IF their Su-27SK's can carry those missiles now. I don't think this is debatable. It wasn't an 'out of the factory' capability.

[EtherealN]

As for Yoda's mod, I've never said it has been allowed on servers, I said I wish it would have been, just like R77's under Flankers which is an official statement by KNAAPO and surely not by my logic.

 

To be precise, what you said was:

 

"Finally we all know that the F-15C in FC2 has improved since its first release in FC1...now it can carry the AIM120C5 with improved range, also an advanced Datalink has been implemented as well, while at the same time the Russian fighters have stayed exactly the same..."

 

So... The balance issue you were bringing forth there is one people for the most part cannot use? While EVERYONE who flies Red has access to a datalink that is way more powerful than LEAVU ever was?

 

Please...

 

And for the missile: as I said, it's not a C5. It's a B with added the range of a C, kinetically.

[RIPTIDE]

Equal pilots, The ER doesn't stand a chance against a 120 in FC2, thinking that because your ER is faster you gonna fool a decent eagle driver is ridiculous, indeed ARH do make a difference.

And here's the thing, everyday 'decent' 15er's on servers DO get 'fooled' by ER's. There are a handful of red drivers out there that are sublime at dodging actives, even inside of ten miles. There aren't many and I have the pleasure of flying with them and against the bas**** most days. :D

[FLANKERATOR]

@GG: Am sure you guys have good connections with the real thing, just saying that there will be things highly classified that even maybe Obama ignores about the F-15 and Medvedev about the Su-27 :D

 

Well re, BVR's high altitude vs low altitude tactic, it would be a huge and deep topic and am not sure we should start it here as it can go on endlessly, even though am still believing the higher frame would have the last word if all done the right way.

 

And for sure, there must have been some minor modifications that had to be done on the SK to carry the R77, still it looks like nothing ED would have not been able to do in a split of a second (announcing transition to SK version in FC2 and allowing related mod to be used for that weapon...)

 

@EtherealN : I admit having never tried LEAVU as never flew the F-15 in FC2, I thought IIRC that it was displaying friendly contacts, their respective buged targets and also their respective slammers on their way with TTA and TTI countdowns..??? this is how it works in a F16 and I assume quite similar for its bigger cousin...still in all cases I was referring to efforts put into the F15 in general, and like previously mentioned I would love seeing that in FC2 as long as it sticks to realism.

 

@ Riptide: Many vs many is definitely a tougher scenario for everyone, as SA is much more concerned than technical capabilities of each frame...Still and with the out most respect, Any pilot inside a F-15 being fooled with a long range ER shot just because it's coming faster could be anything but a decent eagle driver.

Edited April 26, 2011 by FLANKERATOR

[Pilotasso]

Honestly, I don't get it, when we refer to realism, you mention game balancing and vice-versa....Anyways, talking fairly about balancing, F-15C in FC2 got 120C5's, increased ECM burn-trough distance, better BFM capabilities....what Flankers and Mig's got upgraded in FC2 worth mentioning in term of combat effectiveness...??

 

You are hugely inaccurate with this claim. The migs got the very same BFM improvements as the eagles. The AMRAAM got a speed bump because before they were mach 2.5 limited (kinda ridiculous, no?) and not anything else.

[GGTharos]

@GG: Am sure you guys have good connections with the real thing, just saying that there will be things highly classified that even maybe Obama ignores about the F-15 and Medvedev about the Su-27 :D

 

Yeah, but there are also things we know :D

 

Well re, BVR's high altitude vs low altitude tactic, it would be a huge and deep topic and am not sure we should start it here as it can go on endlessly, even though am still believing the higher frame would have the last word if all done the right way.

 

I agree with you that it SHOULD be that way, just saying that there are game-isms that make it less of an advantage than it should have been, that's all.

 

And for sure, there must have been some minor modifications to do on the SK to carry the R77, still it looks like nothing ED would have not been able to do in a split of a second (announcing transition to SK version in FC2 and allowing related mod to be used for that weapon...)

 

I don't know, depends on what you consider minor. For me minor is something that gets funded without much fanfare. As far as I know, R-77 capability was no such thing. The capability simply does not exist in the manuals that were made available to ED, and pilots said the main BVR weapon is R-27R anyway. I think it's not really the SK but some SKM version. Like I said, there's MiG-29A's with R-77's out there, but only one country fields them. I don't think ED will be putting R-77's on MiG-29A's, and since no one (to our knowledge) fields the 27S/SK with R-77's, same deal.

[Pilotasso]

Both Malaysia and india Mig-29's can use RVVAEs now that I remember, and that makes at least 2 countries. :smartass:

 

The Migs have very little left of the A version anymore though.

 

Sorry for being a smart ass. :D

Edited April 26, 2011 by Pilotasso

[Sov13t]

We are doing just fine in our flankers vs anyone. Thank you.

 

Patiently waiting for our DCS: SU-27 even if it is assembled out of circa 1922 equipment.

join 51st and learn how to fly it proper

[GGTharos]

... Sopwith Flankers? :D

[FLANKERATOR]

I don't know, depends on what you consider minor. For me minor is something that gets funded without much fanfare. As far as I know, R-77 capability was no such thing. The capability simply does not exist in the manuals that were made available to ED, and pilots said the main BVR weapon is R-27R anyway. I think it's not really the SK but some SKM version. Like I said, there's MiG-29A's with R-77's out there, but only one country fields them. I don't think ED will be putting R-77's on MiG-29A's, and since no one (to our knowledge) fields the 27S/SK with R-77's, same deal.

 

It is very unlikely to have inaccurate data on KNAAPO's website...the specifications about the Su-27SK are loud and clear, so if reporting R77's being used by this fighter in a real conflict, would be the only way to make this proven, I would say let's forget it.

[FLANKERATOR]

We are doing just fine in our flankers vs anyone. Thank you.

 

Patiently waiting for our DCS: SU-27 even if it is assembled out of circa 1922 equipment.

join 51st and learn how to fly it proper

 

Have I missed something? Where did I mention your squadron in this discussion?? Good for you that you can do just fine vs anyone, but this discussion was typically about the R77 on the Flanker and never about who can or can not kick ass...

[GGTharos]

We have the manuals for the aircraft. I'm just saying - something's up.

 

It is very unlikely to have inaccurate data on KNAAPO's website...the specifications about the Su-27SK are loud and clear, so if reporting R77's being used by this fighter in a real conflict, would be the only way to make this proven, I would say let's forget it.

[Sov13t]

Have I missed something? Where did I mention your squadron in this discussion?? Good for you that you can do just fine vs anyone, but this discussion was typically about the R77 on the Flanker and never about who can or can not kick ass...

 

Was mostly directed at the F-15 pwns with actives comments.

[Cali]

Have I missed something? Where did I mention your squadron in this discussion?? Good for you that you can do just fine vs anyone, but this discussion was typically about the R77 on the Flanker and never about who can or can not kick ass...

 

He was just saying that Russian birds aren't pushovers, they can be very deadly also. Get a few good 27 drivers and they'll give you a massive headache trying to kill them.

[FLANKERATOR]

Sorry Soviet, I thought it was directed at me since I brought the R77 discussion to this topic. And yes the R27ER when used properly in many vs many can prove itself extremely deadly and the best example for this is you guys. Peace!

[vanir]

whenever GG and Ethereal get into a thread discussion I always feel a little bit like I'm on mt olympus, invariably fascinating discussion but scary at the same time like one of them could just send a lightning bolt and blast the thread to pieces at any moment lol

 

ahem, from what I've been reading around the place they're right, much as it is disappointing because I'd really like to see the R-77 on Flankers as a standard option in FC2.

 

and perhaps there is still argument on the flipside of the survey simulator characterisation, a balance thing for the eagle's better radar, ARH for Flankers.

 

but for IRL speculation what appears most likely from reasonable sources would be that the 27S has no base R77 capability out of the box but is merely a software upgrade held in reserve for cost-benefit ratio by RuAF. Standard only as part of an SM upgrade for example.

 

If the RuAF went to war tomorrow software upgrades and R77 production would feed current servicable 27S units by the squadron in very short order I suspect, but in the event this doesn't happen you've just got a limited number equipped for them in the meantime, mostly 27SM outfits. And it'll probably stay that way for the moment because a lot of the current fleet might be nearing airframe death and looking at retirement. Some tail numbers have been out there a few years now.

 

It's not like the Russians are newcomers to superfluous munitions stockpiles, they're still holding millions of artillery shells for the M3 guns of WW2, which therefore despite being completely obsolete they're compelled to keep mothballed because the whole damn thing just represents so much money. They dusted them off in Chechnya about 98 after going through the entire production of D3 ammo from 1960-80 worth. War just costs so much, even regional skirmish if sustained it was a big savings to do it that way and whip out the 70yr old artillery to use ancient stockpiles (that probably have a 50% failure rate by now but who cares).

 

I can't imagine the Russians want to go producing any present tech stockpiles of significant size whilst current war materiels technologies are developing at a rather ambiguous pace. Nobody would be surprised if conventional thought on ARH AAMs was suddenly revolutionised any day now. Or never. The US can still manage to make/replace perpetual munitions stockpiles but I think the Russians are way more conservative and this is the thinking behind front line upgrades.

 

It's like the Su-33, so many latent capabilities lacking only the software modules to incorporate, antiship weapons for one. They do indeed advertise the capability, but the upgrades aren't fitted standard to the service examples. And then this makes fiscal sense for the Russians because the whole Su-33/Kuznetsov is a pilot program anyway, it's not truly an operational force projection, it's a very expensive technology demonstrator.

 

I think when we view the current RuAF fleets in this context things are a little clearer. It's really a work in progress for the 21st century with an emergency capability for now, sort of I think.

 

Does that sound right? Thereabouts? Maybe?

[vanir]

What's that up there, travel agency spam in Russian?

[Cali]

whenever GG and Ethereal get into a thread discussion I always feel a little bit like I'm on mt olympus, invariably fascinating discussion but scary at the same time like one of them could just send a lightning bolt and blast the thread to pieces at any moment lol

 

 

 

You shouldn't feel like that, you can get the same info, if you know where to look.

 

I'm more about realism in this game, if the real jet can use it, then why not have it in game. I would have no problem with 27's carrying R-77's if it was like that in real life.

[Falcon_S]

GG, what version SU-27 is modeled in FC?

[Insanatrix]

It's the SK I think but don't quote me on that cause I don't know much about Russian hardware.

[GGTharos]

Su-27S/SK with capabilities as per the available manual.

 

GG, what version SU-27 is modeled in FC?