104th Server R-77 For Su-27 & MiG-29G NATO Mod!

[EtherealN]

What is the problem; the su-27 datalink is not even close to the real deal

 

Datalink? What datalink? Oh, that's right, only the red birds have datalinks. I forgot that ED are favoritizing the Eagle and thus declined to give the Eagle even an iota of it's datalink capability...

 

Anyway the su-27 now as it is in lock on is an 80s jet fighting against an f-15 with up to date weapons.

 

Sorry, no, not "up-to-date weapons". If the F-15C in FC2 had "up-to-date weapons" they'd be D-model slammers with two-way datalinks. As is the F-15C has some slightly newer slammers than it had on introduction, but even less avionics capability than the 1970's F-15A.

 

Don't pull the whole Eagle thing. It doesn't work. All weapon systems act as part of a system.

 

To be fair there is things missing on both jets; but I get the feeling that f-15 fliers don't like the idea of the su-27 using r-77 missiles

 

Actually, I sort of like the idea once I've thought on it for a while (though I haven't flown the eagle pretty much at all since A-10C went into crunch-mode). If a Flanker carrying the R-77's means it carries less or none of the R-27ER's, that's awesome. They don't get a free first shot anymore! :D

 

some argue that the r-77s is not in active service; when we know that the russians have sold it to several countries.

 

The russian air force does not use it. End of story.

 

One of my favorite arguments is "no pictures; then it is not real" if someone finds a picture "oh that is a captive test missile; it is not a real missile" The russians have shown tons of new seekers for the r-27 and still people argue that the r-27 is an updated totally inferior missile.

 

Well, the pictures thing is the same thing as with R-73's on the Ka-50. Remember that discussion? There were captive-carry tests of it, but never an integration into the system and most definitely not any operational use of it. Nothing.

 

The main argument regarding the R-77 is: it's not being used. The russians decided they're better off not wasting money on it (it is inferior in most respects to present slammer variants), and rather just continue development on better things. I agree with that decision - they're not planning to go to war with any country fielding Slammers in the immediate future, so they don't to buy a stock of weapons that will be obsolescent very soon.

 

How do you guys know for real; have you guys seen real test fires of the r-27 on all its versions and the aim-120s? That stuff is classified.

 

Actually, some people have. :P

Other people know people who have insider knowledge.

And then there's Eagle Dynamics, who has actual documentation for the operational use of said missiles - the reference material used by the real pilots. The fun thing is that there has been occasions where excerpts have been posted but certain Flanker/Mig fans still insist they're somehow not true.

 

The simple fact is that russian technology sort of skipped a generation due to the collapse of the soviet union and the associated problems with funding advanced research programs. The russian government and industry has started to pick up that slack and appear to be working on a comeback, but there's essentially 10-20 years of slack to pick up, so it'll take some time.

 

(And btw, no, I'm not specifically an Eagle fan really. I like the bird in FC because it's good, but in childhood I was a fan of the MiG-29 and Su-25. Those were the birds I built models of alongside the J-35 and not to forget the Typhoon submarine.)

[RvEYoda]

The thing is Cali, as mentioned, this weapons mod does not require a change with the file check. The only way to get LEAVU, Locked Tacview etc. is to remove the file check, or force all players to download a mod to match the server before joining. We ain't gonna remove file check, and only with a commitment from other server admins to do the same as us, will we do the latter.

 

I wish we had these mods as well, but file check seems to have proven helpful for cheating.

 

 

 

Pardon me but this is incorrect. Whether you enable leavu or not is not a big deal for me though since I dont play fc anymore, but it would still be good to let people know.

 

You can forbid tacview but enable leavu and keep file integrity check, because leavu uses only own-sensor data while tacview uses global export functions. To do this use file specified integrity check and remove "export.lua" from the checked files. effectively this means every file except export.lua is integrity checked, and tacview cannot export any data cause that is by default disabled in config.lua (global exports off)

[PoleCat]

Pardon me but this is incorrect. Whether you enable leavu or not is not a big deal for me though since I dont play fc anymore, but it would still be good to let people know.

 

You can forbid tacview but enable leavu and keep file integrity check, because leavu uses only own-sensor data while tacview uses global export functions. To do this use file specified integrity check and remove "export.lua" from the checked files. effectively this means every file except export.lua is integrity checked, and tacview cannot export any data cause that is by default disabled in config.lua (global exports off)

 

Thanks for the clarification Yoda :)

 

Out

[RvEYoda]

Also another quick note on why ED didnt implement a working mfd in the F-15. Ask yourselves why similar functionality in other planes were not implemented, or an entire F-16 wasnt :). They implemented the stuff they considered necessary, however, we (me<->ED) had very good discussions on ironing out some lua export bugs and added new features to the lua export, and these discussions effectively was what made leavu even possible for fc2.

 

Maybe it's a bad idea of me to make these posts, as some people feel like they are losing the fun in the game when the game balance changes. But they should then also expect the same in return when the other side feels threatened as R77s are placed on Su27s. Saying this does not affect game balance...wah. We might just add R-27ETs then to F-15s :). Cause they are still the same missile, right :P

 

Everyone wants to make the game more fun right? For me and some others it means implementing some cool systems. For others it might be giving planes new capabilities in other ways.

Edited June 28, 2011 by =RvE=Yoda

[RIPTIDE]

We might just add R-27ETs then to F-15s :). Cause they are still the same missile, right :P

Do you think putting R-27ET on a F-15C... taking up the pylon space of a AIM-120C is a good idea? :)

[RvEYoda]

Do you think putting R-27ET on a F-15C... taking up the pylon space of a AIM-120C is a good idea? :)

 

 

For sure. just because 1v1 one is better it doesnt mean the composition is. There are parts of the engagement envelopes where the ET is clearly preferable to the aim120, just like you mount 9x missiles instead of 120Cs for close quarter fights.

but PLEASE read the sentence in its context. I am NOT protesting or saying putting r77s on flankers is bad. I'm only saying that claiming it doesnt affect balance is wrong. If you really want to be hardcore balance fanatics, you should look at how its done in Starcraft/Starcraft2

 

As for export.lua security issues:

I am aware of 2 main ones.

- There exists a bug/limitation in the own-sensor radar data export that it exports position of targets that are actually using ecm but arent burned through. (theoretically fixeable in a patch by ED). This is/was the basis for the ecm range estimation emulation code.

- all own sensor data can be exported to external applications (intended behaviour), but, external applications can of course not be controlled by the lua engine/fc. Thus the external applications may for example share data among themselves (without having anything to do with the lua/fc engine). This was the basis for creating leavu. Some consider this a security flaw, but it is an unavoidable fact if you implement any sort of data export methods whatsoever. It is not related to lua or the game, just the principle of being able to export own-sensor data. The same is possible for any sim. Falcon, dcs, you name it. They can all share the same leavu/otherApp datalink. A pretty cool idea would be to build a "datalink commander" application for this, created from the commander's input and planes own-sensor data.

Edited June 28, 2011 by =RvE=Yoda

[Cali]

Pardon me but this is incorrect. Whether you enable leavu or not is not a big deal for me though since I dont play fc anymore, but it would still be good to let people know.

 

You can forbid tacview but enable leavu and keep file integrity check, because leavu uses only own-sensor data while tacview uses global export functions. To do this use file specified integrity check and remove "export.lua" from the checked files. effectively this means every file except export.lua is integrity checked, and tacview cannot export any data cause that is by default disabled in config.lua (global exports off)

 

Thanks for the clarification Yoda :)

 

Out

 

Does this mean that the 104th might look into adding it?

 

To the Su-27/R-77 question. I and many others don't think it changes the game plan or the way you fight 27's anymore then fighting the 29. I haven't seen that big of a difference from fighting them in the 104th server.

[Pilotasso]

2 causes for this:

 

1-most maps are short.

2-preferred tactics: fly low shoot with EOS then run to base straight away.

 

In which circumstances it really doesnt matter what plane you choose since combat persistence and range variables just went out of the window. :)

[FLANKERATOR]

I'm only saying that claiming it doesnt affect balance is wrong.

 

If any effect, then it's very slight, the R-77 doesn't have the range of the AIM-120C in FC2, so regardless of who is launching the F-15 will treat the threat exactly the same.

 

Statistically speaking also, there has been no significant change after introducing this mod, the 15's still rule the sky in FC2.

[Krippz]

Does this mean that the 104th might look into adding it?

 

To the Su-27/R-77 question. I and many others don't think it changes the game plan or the way you fight 27's anymore then fighting the 29. I haven't seen that big of a difference from fighting them in the 104th server.

 

If the premise is does it change the way that you approach Su-27's in multiplayer the answer would be a definitive "yes". I don't think the purpose of adding the R77 to the Su-27 was balance but more of a "why not" sort of thing. Some people like it some don't; it'd be interesting to know whether or not the 104th census has gone down due to the change.

[Pilotasso]

If any effect, then it's very slight, the R-77 doesn't have the range of the AIM-120C in FC2, so regardless of who is launching the F-15 will treat the threat exactly the same.

 

Statistically speaking also, there has been no significant change after introducing this mod, the 15's still rule the sky in FC2.

 

Disagree. range is not much of a factor here. The key is stealth attacks.

Limit the eagle with B slammers or R77 duplicates and the result will be nearly identical.

[Cali]

2 causes for this:

 

1-most maps are short.

2-preferred tactics: fly low shoot with EOS then run to base straight away.

 

In which circumstances it really doesnt matter what plane you choose since combat persistence and range variables just went out of the window. :)

 

But if people have longer flight times they tend not to fly in that server. Most people want fast action, that is why "air quake' always comes to mind. People don't have to manage their fuel or weapons, since they are close to their base like you said. In the longer flights you'll get the people that will just eject or pull a rambo instead of flying all the way back to base.

 

If the premise is does it change the way that you approach Su-27's in multiplayer the answer would be a definitive "yes". I don't think the purpose of adding the R77 to the Su-27 was balance but more of a "why not" sort of thing. Some people like it some don't; it'd be interesting to know whether or not the 104th census has gone down due to the change.

 

I don't think the census went down, I bet it's about the same. At least that is what I have seen. The ER has longer range, but the F-15 still has the silent TWS shot, which the Su-27 will always wonder if he fired a 120 or not.

[Krippz]

If any effect, then it's very slight, the R-77 doesn't have the range of the AIM-120C in FC2, so regardless of who is launching the F-15 will treat the threat exactly the same.

 

Statistically speaking also, there has been no significant change after introducing this mod, the 15's still rule the sky in FC2.

 

Actually it does affect balance. Your altering the inherint capability of an aircraft whether or not your tactics would not change compared to a Mig-29 is irrelevant. Actually I don't see how the tactics wouldn't change anyway; one airframe has a better radar, longer legs, bigger payload; I'm sure the difference isn't negligible :huh:

[Pilotasso]

what if maps are short enough not to make a difference? Most people dont exploit the radar advantage the flanker has over the mig. They wait till EOS range while flying low. Of course then the platform dont matter if missiles and IR sensors used are the same.

[Cali]

Actually it does affect balance. Your altering the inherint capability of an aircraft whether or not your tactics would not change compared to a Mig-29 is irrelevant. Actually I don't see how the tactics wouldn't change anyway; one airframe has a better radar, longer legs, bigger payload; I'm sure the difference isn't negligible :huh:

 

From my flying 27's armed with R-77's don't effect anything. You treat them just as you would if they had 27ER's. They don't have the surprise of a silent shot, once they fire the 77 you'll know. Look at how many times the people that fly the F-15 a lot have been shot down by R-77's....I don't think it is that high......I would say it's around the same as the ER.

[FLANKERATOR]

Actually it does affect balance. Your altering the inherint capability of an aircraft whether or not your tactics would not change compared to a Mig-29 is irrelevant. Actually I don't see how the tactics wouldn't change anyway; one airframe has a better radar, longer legs, bigger payload; I'm sure the difference isn't negligible :huh:

 

It does NOT affect balance when the map is short, RTB's are unlimited and covered by SAM's. IF you are speaking about a Force on Force Air Superiority Sortie, then it's a complete different story. Do not mix things up, this topic is about the R77 mod on the 104th server.

[FLANKERATOR]

Disagree. range is not much of a factor here. The key is stealth attacks.

Limit the eagle with B slammers or R77 duplicates and the result will be nearly identical.

 

I would say TWS feature is for sure a significant advantage, but IMO it's second to the 15km range advantage the Slammer C has over the R-77 in FC2. In BVR, nothing comes close to being able to put you opponent in your missile's NEZ while denying him doing the same.

[Pilotasso]

Maximum BVR range is of little importance when you can evade both then. NEZ range which is vastly more important sees a mere 2 miles difference at most between the B and C. Just wait a few seconds more and it doesnt matter much which missile you fire. The tactics are the same.

[FLANKERATOR]

Am sure you are aware that every second matters when it comes to BVR combat. 1 second can make the difference between being able to out run a missile for example and being forced to dance with fire :)

[Pilotasso]

Even if the ranges of the R-77 and AIM120B were the same (infact they are very similar) just because the russ birds are always flying close to the ground compared to the F-15 their NEZ are bigger than the eagle. So those extra seconds not only will go by very fast but they also might not give you anything at all if the eagle driver knows whats hes doing.

[mikoyan]

For sure. just because 1v1 one is better it doesnt mean the composition is. There are parts of the engagement envelopes where the ET is clearly preferable to the aim120, just like you mount 9x missiles instead of 120Cs for close quarter fights.

but PLEASE read the sentence in its context. I am NOT protesting or saying putting r77s on flankers is bad. I'm only saying that claiming it doesnt affect balance is wrong. If you really want to be hardcore balance fanatics, you should look at how its done in Starcraft/Starcraft2

 

As for export.lua security issues:

I am aware of 2 main ones.

- There exists a bug/limitation in the own-sensor radar data export that it exports position of targets that are actually using ecm but arent burned through. (theoretically fixeable in a patch by ED). This is/was the basis for the ecm range estimation emulation code.

- all own sensor data can be exported to external applications (intended behaviour), but, external applications can of course not be controlled by the lua engine/fc. Thus the external applications may for example share data among themselves (without having anything to do with the lua/fc engine). This was the basis for creating leavu. Some consider this a security flaw, but it is an unavoidable fact if you implement any sort of data export methods whatsoever. It is not related to lua or the game, just the principle of being able to export own-sensor data. The same is possible for any sim. Falcon, dcs, you name it. They can all share the same leavu/otherApp datalink. A pretty cool idea would be to build a "datalink commander" application for this, created from the commander's input and planes own-sensor data.

 

What do I need to learn before starting working on a russian version of leavu?

[RIPTIDE]

Re LEAVU: In the previous discussions regarding LEAVU it soon became clear that the Server Admins didn't agree on a standard set of files that could then be IC'd. So LEAVU + MP is really a moot point. The security discussion, gameplay balance ect is actually another side discussion and not the real issue.

[RIPTIDE]

This is certainly true. Speaking of which, are you seeing less volume than before, same, more? ...

Just to go back to this point...

 

A2A is approaching about 1,000 Callsigns serviced per month. Was about 750-800. But there are other factors. Ghe.. emm... A-10C people have probably got a bit more time now for FC2.0, numbers dropped when the Beta's were been delivered.. new mission was released... etc. So its hard to judge this mods effect on it own. Maybe Moa has more info about total flight hours. There was a few nights initially where it was a flanker fest. :P

[Moa]

What do I need to learn before starting working on a russian version of leavu?

 

Lua and Java. There is a lot of existing structure there, so you don't have to start with a blank slate. Just extend what is already there.

 

For Java all the tools are free (including good Integrated Development Environments like Netbeans and Eclipse). The Leavu2 source code and build project was made available by Yoda at http://www.kenai.com (http://kenai.com/projects/leavu2) but Oracle has shut that site down and moved projects to http://www.java.net (although it doesn't look like leavu2 was migrated).

[GGTharos]

I think Yoda is looking to start work on LEAVU3 ... with no restrictions this time, and no appeasing people with artificial limitations to the types of targets transmitted or super slow dlink update rates.