SAM Evasion Techniques

[Doum76]

Greetings,

 

Here's a video i found a few days ago on this forums, jsut c'ant find the thread again.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak6EgzDwiGs&feature=channel_video_title

 

 

And here's a Tracview and .trk of some training i am doing lately, it's with the SA-19 based on that tutorial, of course you gotta change your technique on diff SAM, as for this SA-19 i found it a bit tougher than the SA-08 whch is older, and not to mention the SA-09 which doesn't ping your EWR, and has a narrow Range, so basiculy when you know he's locked on you, it's beause you get a M on your EWR and you are right on top of him, so evasive maneuvers are a bit different.

 

I'm far from perfect, and only been praticing since a few days, but i can tel you that video helps, i'll attach two .zip files, the practice i've done with SA-08, SA-09 and SA-19, both in .trk and tacview. As i said, not perfect but it did survived, and manage to find the bastard after i emptied his missiles and get him down. :joystick:

 

 

Doum

Edited December 6, 2016 by Doum76

[Speed]

Generally though, the best SAM evasion technique is to never get shot at in the first place. If you know there are SAMs in a certain area, either fly around them or fly above them.

[Doum76]

Generally though, the best SAM evasion technique is to never get shot at in the first place. If you know there are SAMs in a certain area, either fly around them or fly above them.

 

Agree :)

 

But when it hapeens, to know how to evade them, helps, after all, we aren't real A-10 pilot, we will be painted and shoot upon. :joystick: and... downed loll

 

Doum

[BrandonBP]

I was reading this thread because I'm about up to speed on my weapons practice and want to start running some of the missions.

 

It seems to me that the radar and anti-air threats would have been taken out by stealth fighters and cruise missiles by the time they sent in the attack aircraft to pummel the armor. I know that doesn't mean a MANPAD won't pop up here and there, but would they really have slowpoke attack planes flying through SAM country?

 

I dunno. Just asking since you guys are up on this.

[GGTharos]

Most of the SAMs that move with armor (in the Russian military, AD and other army units are integrated) are very mobile units that you can't take out with stealth fighters, cruise missiles or even SEAD - not easily anyway.

 

Such units are: SA-8/9/13/15/19, specifically, MANPADS and AAA aside. You'll typically find 4-6 such vehicles moving with a battalion or brigade, IIRC.

[BrandonBP]

Most of the SAMs that move with armor (in the Russian military, AD and other army units are integrated) are very mobile units that you can't take out with stealth fighters, cruise missiles or even SEAD - not easily anyway.

 

Such units are: SA-8/9/13/15/19, specifically, MANPADS and AAA aside. You'll typically find 4-6 such vehicles moving with a battalion or brigade, IIRC.

Ok, makes sense. It just seems like the past wars we've been in since 1991, we've had air dominance immediately where our attack planes had free reign over the airspace to reek chaos since all the AA was gone. But I wasn't flying in those wars, so there you go.

[emtguf]

Greetings,

 

Here's a video i found a few days ago on this forums, jsut c'ant find the thread again.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak6EgzDwiGs&feature=channel_video_title

 

 

And here's a Tracview and .trk of some training i am doing lately, it's with the SA-19 based on that tutorial, of course you gotta change your technique on diff SAM, as for this SA-19 i found it a bit tougher than the SA-08 whch is older, and not to mention the SA-09 which doesn't ping your EWR, and has a narrow Range, so basiculy when you know he's locked on you, it's beause you get a M on your EWR and you are right on top of him, so evasive maneuvers are a bit different.

 

I'm far from perfect, and only been praticing since a few days, but i can tel you that video helps, i'll attach two .zip files, the practice i've done with SA-08, SA-09 and SA-19, both in .trk and tacview. As i said, not perfect but it did survived, and manage to find the bastard after i emptied his missiles and get him down. :joystick:

 

 

Doum

 

That's my video, was going to post a link to it but you beat me to it!

I struggled for awhile with missile avoidance, but after reading a lot and practicing a lot I now haven't been hit in weeks doing basically what I have in that video. The most important thing i've found is visually finding the missile, before you attempt to avoid it.

[GGTharos]

Actually, what happened is this:

 

In the gulf wars, the USAF took out the major C&C centers and disabled the IADS like that. Major SEAD sorties prevented a lot of SAMs of operating - but make no mistake about it ... Iraq's SAMs did hit USAF aircraft. Tornados were hit by SHORAD, etc. It isn't like the SAMs did nothing, they were just largely ineffective at protecting the land assets.

 

Fast forward to the whole Kosovo affair: The SAMs weren't terribly effective there either, but they did hit targets. Furthermore, they actually survived - NATO didn't hit a whole lot of SAMs or much of anything else that was military, IIRC. The armies were well hidden and awaited a ground battle, sparing themselves from being bombed in case there was an actual ground offensive.

Aircraft were fired on aplenty in that particular war. A-10's typically operated at 29000' just to maintain their hard deck and avoid being touched by MANPADS and other such things (Go on, fire up A-10C and try flying it up there with your 10000000000000 CBUs and GBUs ;) ).

 

Ok, makes sense. It just seems like the past wars we've been in since 1991, we've had air dominance immediately where our attack planes had free reign over the airspace to reek chaos since all the AA was gone. But I wasn't flying in those wars, so there you go.

[Laud]

It just seems like the past wars we've been in since 1991, we've had air dominance immediately where our attack planes had free reign over the airspace to reek chaos since all the AA was gone.

 

Have a look at the two books about the A-10 in Kosovo and Desert Storm. They've been shot at quite a few times! Radar silence has been their trick to keep some of their ADs alive when the attack aircraft came in. Many other allied aircraft also got shot at this way. Except for Afghanistan they've never been in a really safe environment.

 

EDIT: GG was faster! ... and more detailed... ;)

[159th_Viper]

....and Desert Storm....

 

In Desert Storm alone there was 6 A-10's lost in combat, all but one aircraft destroyed as a direct result of SHORAD.

[Laud]

Yeah, reading the book gave me whole new idea about that war, other than the media did back in the days. At least about the flying in that war. The book about the F-15E in Desert Storm did that also...

[Doum76]

Your vid was pretty useful. Lots of time though like in your vid, it's oftenly a close call when you watch the replay, sometimes i do have a hard time to keep a visual on the SAM, specialy the SA-19 (so far i'Ve been praticing with SA-8 (easy to spot trail) SA-19 (tougher after luached) and SA-9, pretty clsoe calls, and last night we did a MP misison from Dragon's.. and we've met Mr. Roland... nasty SAM :P

 

 

 

That's my video, was going to post a link to it but you beat me to it!

I struggled for awhile with missile avoidance, but after reading a lot and practicing a lot I now haven't been hit in weeks doing basically what I have in that video. The most important thing i've found is visually finding the missile, before you attempt to avoid it.

[emtguf]

Your vid was pretty useful. Lots of time though like in your vid, it's oftenly a close call when you watch the replay, sometimes i do have a hard time to keep a visual on the SAM, specialy the SA-19 (so far i'Ve been praticing with SA-8 (easy to spot trail) SA-19 (tougher after luached) and SA-9, pretty clsoe calls, and last night we did a MP misison from Dragon's.. and we've met Mr. Roland... nasty SAM :P

 

 

I've noticed it is generally a close call if you are at a higher altitude. When you are lower you can generally get them to miss you by quite a distance.

[Doum76]

I've noticed it is generally a close call if you are at a higher altitude. When you are lower you can generally get them to miss you by quite a distance.

 

 

Well with the newly 1109, they do ping on RWR now, a bit easier :) Same tricks as you've teach us, pretty much work, gotta show you a movie some day how you helped me out with your vids. in the virtual squadron im in, i'm the one in our flight, wasting up the sams so we can spot them and get them down as i did with my lead, wasted 11 missilea from a SA-11 site (not to mentioned a ferw of them was with-out chaffs left), and he flew up over it and droped a CBU on the site. :)

 

 

Take care,

I gotta find how to send up rep, and you will get some your way :thumbup:

 

 

Doum

[Doum76]

Here's the vid of a mission i've made, avoiding different types of SAM along a flight path, i am not an expert pilot, so don't be rude at me, but hey, i survived all the launches :thumbup: That's a start. :)

 

 

Doum

[emtguf]

Here's the vid of a mission i've made, avoiding different types of SAM along a flight path, i am not an expert pilot, so don't be rude at me, but hey, i survived all the launches :thumbup: That's a start. :)

 

 

Doum

 

 

Cool video! Awesome to see it from another sim pilots perspective.

Been working on a mission similar to yours to show a buddy of mine how stressful avoiding sams can be.

[Doum76]

Cool video! Awesome to see it from another sim pilots perspective.

Been working on a mission similar to yours to show a buddy of mine how stressful avoiding sams can be.

 

Interesting, maybe we can trade missions, i've modified mine, SA-11 are now working, but damn those are a real joke, so boring to evade.

 

I am actualy uploading other vids, two evading Manpads on a flight plan that has 6 site, the first try was at 6 000 ft, pretty much easy, time to react, and the other is trying to keep a 4 000 ft lvl, way less time to react to avoid, that's some challenge, only a second or so to react... I wanted to give you credits on most of my vid, since i'Ve learned much from your tutorial. But still, you gotta adjsut your technics for some of them, i am still really working on the Tunguska, so far the best way i've found was to do a split-s while doing the 180 turn, but i am trying to find a way to do it most lvl in case of AAA near by.

 

Tunguska are my nemesis so far...

 

 

Doum

[GGTharos]

Program that SA-11 properly, and we'll see what the 'joke' is ... have him activate when you're no more than 8nm away.

[emtguf]

Interesting, maybe we can trade missions, i've modified mine, SA-11 are now working, but damn those are a real joke, so boring to evade.

 

I am actualy uploading other vids, two evading Manpads on a flight plan that has 6 site, the first try was at 6 000 ft, pretty much easy, time to react, and the other is trying to keep a 4 000 ft lvl, way less time to react to avoid, that's some challenge, only a second or so to react... I wanted to give you credits on most of my vid, since i'Ve learned much from your tutorial. But still, you gotta adjsut your technics for some of them, i am still really working on the Tunguska, so far the best way i've found was to do a split-s while doing the 180 turn, but i am trying to find a way to do it most lvl in case of AAA near by.

 

Tunguska are my nemesis so far...

 

 

Doum

 

The Techniques are just basic techniques to help people get started avoiding missiles. Obviously you will need to alter them to suit the situation you are in. The main reason I put them up there is waaaaaay back when Falcon 4 first came out I had no idea how to avoid the sams. If I had at least had a starting reference technique back then I think I would have been much happier with that sim (and not cussing it out everytime I exploded on a mission). So basically the vids are just to give people a graphical reference to help get them on their way so there isn't so much frustration when starting out.

 

 

And yes SA-11s can be mean SOBs

[Doum76]

Program that SA-11 properly, and we'll see what the 'joke' is ... have him activate when you're no more than 8nm away.

 

Well mind to tell mw how to do that, i am no expert in ME advanced editing. The few spare time i have to get in the sim, i try to use it to learn stuff inside the A-10, rather than the ME. The A-10 iteself is a monster to learn. :(

 

Thanks,

 

Doum

[GGTharos]

Use a trigger together with AI ON/OFF action.

[Laud]

Program that SA-11 properly, and we'll see what the 'joke' is ... have him activate when you're no more than 8nm away.

 

Which is quite funy with all SAM-Systems. It kinda upgrades the AIs skill, by simulating it's waiting for you to get into the no-escape-zone.

[Frostiken]

Have a look at the two books about the A-10 in Kosovo and Desert Storm. They've been shot at quite a few times! Radar silence has been their trick to keep some of their ADs alive when the attack aircraft came in. Many other allied aircraft also got shot at this way. Except for Afghanistan they've never been in a really safe environment.

 

Yes well those conflicts were also a pretty long time ago. For ODS, most F-15Es didn't even have LANTIRN pods because not enough were ever made and they had to team up to share one between lead and wingman. Every branch of service got the short end of the stick there, with a notable lack of resources all around. Additionally the war moved so much more quickly than expected which overextended air assets considerably. I don't think it's fair to compare the rather unique circumstances of ODS, as I'm fairly sure many lessons were learned from that one.

 

Additionally, only 6 combat losses is a trifle compared to the number of sorties that they flew. Keep in mind that in Kosovo, the air war was such a cluster**** that we let an F-117A get shot down, and then were so bone-headed we didn't bomb the wreckage.

 

Here's the vid of a mission i've made, avoiding different types of SAM along a flight path, i am not an expert pilot, so don't be rude at me, but hey, i survived all the launches That's a start.

 

 

Doum

 

Good video, you but you definitely got lucky on the SA-19 / Igla. Those are probably the biggest nightmare for me. You have about one second to do something before it hits you...

Edited August 5, 2011 by Frostiken

[Doum76]

 

Good video, you but you definitely got lucky on the SA-19 / Igla. Those are probably the biggest nightmare for me. You have about one second to do something before it hits you...

 

Well i gotta admit with the Igla, manpad it's always a close call special taken from around 4 000 ft, i started to train avoiding them around 6 000 easier since that gives you a few second more, but ended trying lower altitude.. as you can see, it's a pain, easier when launched front of you though, i start a sorta baril roll, turning the way it's coming from, ie, if it's on the right side of the RWR i turn right while turning, that alows me to spot it, and do a quick turn to let him pas by, i'm having a much harder time when launched from behind, so far the trick i found was, when launched, start climbing, flares decoy, then a few second after, well not even a few secon, inverted and then going down while looking back being able to spot it.... not always a success but still trying to beat those darn Manpads....

 

Here's to give you an idea, i uploaded today a vid i made with a little mission i made, 6 Manpads along a flight plan, trying to avoid them at around 4 000 ft, pretty insance, i was tired of restarting the mission, so for the purpose of training, i made the aircraft indestructible, i ended up on this try getting hit 2 times... not bad versus about 15 totals launch...

 

I know my technics are far from being perfect... but it's a start to get it better in time and at least i don't die anymore ont he first missile launched at me in a mission, i cost less to the state now :lol:

 

Manpads avoidance training

 

Roland avoidance training, see and spot the launch site and take the sam out.

 

Training avoiding SA-8 with 2 sam sites with 2 Osa each.

 

I'm open to suggestion and please, avoid the YOU SUCK, i am not a USAF pilot, so yeah i suck :P

 

Take care,

 

Doum

[Laud]

I'm open to suggestion and please, avoid the YOU SUCK, i am not a USAF pilot, so yeah i suck :P

 

Keep in mind that all weapon systems are designed to be effective. So being forced to fly into an unsafe environment/altitude is always a risk. Even really experienced pilots got hit by SAMs. The only way to safely avoid being shot down is to avoid getting into the fire envelope of a weapon. No matter whether it's an A-A or G-A weapon. Once sh!t is underway, you need a good portion of luck added to your defensive actions.