Frickin' Laserbeams

[Eddie]

With autolase 'on' you get the laser automatically fired on release, so bomb gets 'Lased' through out its flight.

 

No. The laser will activate at the time before impact YOU specify in the DSMS profile.

[Speed]

Just curious to your reason for not using Autolase? The rest I pretty much get I just have to get my processes down. More practice.:pilotfly:

 

I must say though that using the ME to create some of my practice environments is a great way to ease your way into mission editing. Plus it's pretty cool when you set something up and it actually works when you fly it!:D

 

The reason I don't use autolase is because I attack rather fast moving targets with my LGBs and sometimes I find myself doing some pretty wild things with them. If you have your autolase set to 8 seconds, good luck hitting something moving faster than 40 km/h:D

 

Depending on my attack profile, and the direction the target is moving, sometimes I have to start my lase from the time the bomb is dropped, sometimes, I have to start it 20 seconds before... only when the target is not moving at all would I EVER start it like 8 seconds before impact!!!!!

 

For example, against a really fast moving target, I'll try to attack from the same direction the target is moving, so that the bomb, as it noses-over, sees the laser beam.

 

If I'm attacking any other direction, I have to improvise. The fast mover, and the laser spot, will be gone from the bomb's field of view even if you lase from the moment of drop sometimes. So what I do is I drop the bomb, unlock the TGP off point mode and into area track, and start lasing. I zoom the TGP way out and watch where the moving target I want to attack goes. It will probably drive off of the TGP FOV. About 15-20 seconds before impact, I slew the TGP crosshairs over to find my target again, and guide on it till impact.

 

Why I'm doing this is because the target is so fast moving that by the time the bomb noses over and faces the spot on the ground where the target WAS when I dropped the bomb, the target is going to be long gone. So first, I let the bomb see the laser spot at the spot on the ground where the target was when the bomb was dropped. Now that the bomb is tracking the laser spot, I move the TGP over to where the target actually is. The bomb is pretty manueverable and can make the turn.

 

I remember a LGB kill I got once using a similar tactic. I dropped the bomb from only about 9k feet in a slight dive, which in itself is not good for LGBs. Then the target I was going to attack go destroyed! I saw some targets closer to me, but I knew that in the bomb's current flight path, it would never see the laser spot if I switched to those. So I laser designated the terrain in front of me. Guessing that the was seeing the spot now, I moved the TGP quickly down to the targets almost underneath me. Suddenly I saw the bomb fly in to the TGP from a rather unusual angle and blow up my target :)

 

But yea, when you are constantly trying to think through the bomb's trajectory, and on one drop, you might guide it against a very fast mover, and on the next drop, you might guide it against a stationary target... autolase is just stupid to use. Auto lase is incredibly inflexible and does not allow for a thinking human to enter the loop and guide the weapon in a much more intelligent way.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Speed

[Eddie]

Well, in situations like the above, just set the auto lase for a longer TTI. If you're flying a mission that will require engaging both static and moving targets with GBU-12/10 set up 2 or 3 profiles, one for static one for slow moving and one for high speed targets.

 

Of course, at any time you can override the auto lase and activate or disable the laser manually, so if the preset isn't doing the job you can take over.

[Speed]

Well, in situations like the above, just set the auto lase for a longer TTI. If you're flying a mission that will require engaging both static and moving targets with GBU-12/10 set up 2 or 3 profiles, one for static one for slow moving and one for high speed targets.

 

Of course, at any time you can override the auto lase and activate or disable the laser manually, so if the preset isn't doing the job you can take over.

 

...or just avoid the hassle of setting up multiple profiles, checking to make sure you are using the correct profile, adding new profiles when an unexpected demand occurs, rapidly switching between profiles during an "oh shit I'm on the wrong auto lase profile" moment, blah blah blah, with just a press of a single button (NWS/LASER/AR DISC) to manually lase at the appropriate time. Oh yea, and you gotta take the five seconds it takes to switch the TGP to "Latch On".

 

It's much easier, IMO, to just do manual lasing 100% of the time.

 

I just don't see the need for it. Maybe it works for some people's flying styles, but for me, auto lase would just increase the pilot work load, and thus, auto lase gets the axe. I was real happy when that crap became off by default :)

Edited July 11, 2011 by Speed

[Eddie]

Fair enough, if you consider things like setting up profile a hassle. Personally for me they are an essential part of mission planning just as important (or even more so) as flight plans and radio frequencies.

 

Your method, is to me, rather than simplifying the process adding additional steps which make it more complicated than it needs to me.

 

IMO it's far better to do the work on the ground or in transit than in the heat of combat when you're having to maintain SA, find targets, watch for SAMs/AAA and other threats.

 

But hey, if it works for you.....

[Fish]

No. The laser will activate at the time before impact YOU specify in the DSMS profile.

 

I stand corrected. :huh:

[cichlidfan]

OK, I understand your reasoning and technique. Interesting discussion. The one thing that I do not understand is this...

 

Depending on my attack profile, and the direction the target is moving, sometimes I have to start my lase from the time the bomb is dropped, sometimes, I have to start it 20 seconds before

 

If I am reading that correctly, you start lasing while the bomb is still on the plane! I can not see what that gets you since the bomb is not looking until it is released (unless I am wrong about that as well).

 

Also, in case nobody noticed, my original question was about how far away you can be and still detect the JTAC/AFAC laser?

 

Have only seen one guess of ten miles on that subject, anyone?

Edited July 11, 2011 by cichlidfan

[Speed]

If I am reading that correctly, you start lasing while the bomb is still on the plane! I can not see what that gets you since the bomb is not looking until it is released (unless I am wrong about that as well).

 

Twenty seconds before impact.

[Frostiken]

You'd have to be dropping bombs at like 30,000 feet in that case. Otherwise there'd be no hope of the bomb even reaching the target since it would cut the corner to an extreme degree.

[cichlidfan]

You'd have to be dropping bombs at like 30,000 feet in that case. Otherwise there'd be no hope of the bomb even reaching the target since it would cut the corner to an extreme degree.

 

Thanks for the reply Speed. I suspected that was what you meant. Then reading Frostiken's post puts me back in the mode of being confused (it's OK, I am used to it).

 

I would imagine that there are some theoretical rules that get taught to RL pilots but then they each tend to find their own methods. I guess I would love to see the 'book' on this stuff, just for the sake of curiousity. The bottom line is, whatever works.

 

No offense but does anyone else think that asking some of these questions here is like asking a room full of grandmothers 'How to raise children?':D

[Speed]

Fair enough, if you consider things like setting up profile a hassle. Personally for me they are an essential part of mission planning just as important (or even more so) as flight plans and radio frequencies.

 

Your method, is to me, rather than simplifying the process adding additional steps which make it more complicated than it needs to me.

 

IMO it's far better to do the work on the ground or in transit than in the heat of combat when you're having to maintain SA, find targets, watch for SAMs/AAA and other threats.

 

But hey, if it works for you.....

 

Well, to be honest, a lot of the time, there is nothing wrong with lasing from the moment the bomb comes off the rail. The bomb won't fly an optimal flight path, but it doesn't have to. As long as you are flying above like angels 18, that is, and I almost always am when dropping an LGB.

 

So for me, flying high, pressing a single button the same time the bomb is dropped is way less complicated than messing with profiles, especially when I can just press the button the same time the bomb is dropped a lot of the times.

 

It comes out to personal preference, so there is nothing wrong with the way you are doing it, for sure. But someone asked why would anyone ever not use auto lase... the fact is, some people find auto lase more work than manual lasing :thumbup:

[cichlidfan]

Here is an example of my confusion about this issue. This is out of the Flight Manual.

 

Note: To assist with accuracy, it's recommended that you deliver these bombs from above 15,000 feet AGL and delay lasing the target until 8 seconds before impact.

 

This is from pg 558. A statement like that would make much more sense to me if it were followed by an explanation of why it matters to delay firing the laser or what happens if you fire earlier or later. As a blanket statement it does not stand up very well on its own.

 

...and yes I do realize that there was only room for so much information and the manual was not intended to answer every question.;)

[sobek]

Because firing early will make the bomb waste energy. This is not much of a problem in the A-10, since you are not giving the bomb a lot of energy to begin with(kinetic, you can still give it plenty potential energy), but with faster jets that can throw the bombs a lot further, it is important for glide performance that the bomb does not bleed of all the energy at an early stage of the delivery or it will fall seriously short.

Edited July 11, 2011 by sobek

[Speed]

Because firing early will make the bomb waste energy. This is not much of a problem in the A-10, since you are not giving the bomb a lot of energy to begin with(kinetic, you can still give it plenty potential energy), but with faster jets that can throw the bombs a lot further, it is detrimental to glide performance that the bomb does not bleed of all the energy at an early stage of the delivery.

 

Exactly. The bomb is falling almost straight down. So the bomb will always be able to hit a stationary or slow moving target from 20k feet even if you fire the laser the second the bomb comes off the rack. It's not going to see the laser anyway until 20-25 secs till impact most likely.

[Speed]

Here is an example of my confusion about this issue. This is out of the Flight Manual.

 

 

This is from pg 558. A statement like that would make much more sense to me if it were followed by an explanation of why it matters to delay firing the laser or what happens if you fire earlier or later. As a blanket statement it does not stand up very well on its own.

 

...and yes I do realize that there was only room for so much information and the manual was not intended to answer every question.;)

 

They didn't have time to fit everything into the manual. You just gotta think through this stuff on your own. Personally, I don't like trusting other people on recommendations, if I can avoid it... I want to figure out WHY they made those recommendations so I can figure out when those recommendations are false.

 

Those recommendations were made because the bomb, once it sees the laser spot, points its nose directly at the laser spot. This can be a rather inefficient mode of flight, and in extreme cases, it could cause the bomb to miss the target. However, the A-10 moves so slowly it's really hard to get to the extreme case where the bomb misses the target due to you lasing the target too early. From 20k feet, in the A-10 at least, I actually think it may be IMPOSSIBLE to lase the target so early that the bomb misses. From 10k feet, however, it may in fact be possible to lase a target to early.. I haven't experimented enough at that altitude, because it's not an altitude you should be emplying LGBs at anyway.

 

And that blanket statement is DEAD WRONG if you are trying to hit a moving target thats going faster than like 30km/h, because it will have completely moved out of the bombs's field of view by the time you are 8 seconds before impact, assuming you dropped it from like 20k feet.

 

But yea... I just like manual lase because while a lot of the time, sure, I may be firing the laser from the second the bomb comes off the rack, before you know it, I might be in a situation where I am rushing, trying to save friendly ground troops from annihilation, and I need to release a LGB in a rather unusual flight path in a split second and try to decide what is the best time to turn the laser on. I don't want any stupid auto lase on my LGBs, just like I don't want any "auto" weapons system mode on my Ka-50. No thank you, I think I know how to use the weapons better than some dumb computer ;)

Edited July 11, 2011 by Speed

[cichlidfan]

I don't want any stupid auto lase on my LGBs, just like I don't want any "auto" weapons system mode on my Ka-50. No thank you, I think I know how to use the weapons better than some dumb computer ;)

 

That is really the bottom line. Experience. I obviously just need to drop a lot more bombs under a lot more circumstances. Unlike so many here, I have not played other similar sims and definately nothing at this level. I am still learning to fly well, so the weapons delivery is that much more challenging.

 

I am a long way from not having to think about each step so the less I have to do at the same time the better. I don't need notes much anymore but I do frequently have to step myself through things still.

 

Ah well, each day I learn a little bit more...and discover something else I don't know! Gotta love it!:D

 

Thanks much for your thoughts, good things to keep in mind.