PAC 1/PAC 2

[Alphamale]

Could someone briefly explain how this is supposed to work for GUNS? I have a CH FS and Pro Throttle with Saitek pedals. The fighterstick, as you're probably aware, does not have a dual stage trigger. I've tried a few users' profiles and scripts that mimick the dual stage process, but how does that process actually work? Are you supposed to engage PAC 1 first to stabilize the aircraft and then fire with PAC2? Or should you just be able to have PAC 2 available? The FM doesn't really go into detail about this. Thanks

 

AM

[Brutal]

I just get the guns pipper as close to target as possible then I press 'P' to stabilize jet then give a full 2 seconds burst at a 30 degree dive angle. Works a treat!!

[Frostiken]

Everything you'd like to know about PAC.

 

Everything you'd like to know about the CH Fighterstick trigger.

[159th_Viper]

Are you supposed to engage PAC 1 first to stabilize the aircraft and then fire with PAC2? Or should you just be able to have PAC 2 available?

 

In the absence of a dual-stage trigger, it's either/or - Is however advisable to have both. PAC-1 will stabilize your aircraft, whilst PAC-2 will stabilize and send rounds down-range. With PAC-1 you have the luxury of 'correcting' your aim - with PAC-2 you do not.

 

Up to you :)

[Alphamale]

In the absence of a dual-stage trigger, it's either/or - Is however advisable to have both. PAC-1 will stabilize your aircraft, whilst PAC-2 will stabilize and send rounds down-range. With PAC-1 you have the luxury of 'correcting' your aim - with PAC-2 you do not.

 

Up to you :)

 

So, you're saying you really don't need PAC 1, but without PAC 2, you can't fire?

[EtherealN]

No, he's saying the following:

 

PAC1 = Gun trigger stage 1 = Stabilization

PAC2 = Gun trigger stage 2 = Stabilization + firing.

 

You can fire just fine without PAC2, but you'll have to adjust for recoil and do aiming completely manually. There is an arming switch for the PAC on the front panel that you can arm or unarm depending on the situation - for example, if you are prosecuting an MBT you'd want it on, if you are going to lay a strafe-run on a column of soft targets or infantry position you might want to leave it off to "walk" the rounds over the target area.

 

What you could do is map GUNPAC1 to some other accessible button, and then have GUNPAC2 mapped to your trigger. On a gunrun, stabilise with that button you assigned PAC1 to, and whenever you press the trigger it will activate PAC2 and fire. If you don't want it for a specific gunrun, unarm it on the front panel.

[Alphamale]

No, he's saying the following:

 

 

 

What you could do is map GUNPAC1 to some other accessible button, and then have GUNPAC2 mapped to your trigger. On a gunrun, stabilise with that button you assigned PAC1 to, and whenever you press the trigger it will activate PAC2 and fire. If you don't want it for a specific gunrun, unarm it on the front panel.

 

This is what I'm trying to do. But it seems I'm having problems determining whether this is a DX command or a "mapped keypress". I do get PAC2 when I depress BTN 1 on Joystick1 (which is the CH FS), but this trigger is designated as a DX button and shows as Joy_BTN1 in game options. I have P assigned as a keyboard key for Gun (first stage trigger). But no matter how I mess with the CMS scripts or button assignments, I can never get PAC1 to display on the HUD prior to pulling the trigger, which will employ PAC2 until I release the trigger.

[EtherealN]

Ran a quick test flight, and it works perfectly fine for me. Press-and-hold P, and PAC1 goes on fine.

 

Note, if you are scripting something, make sure it actually HOLDS the P command. Just having the program send the P key command for one polling cycle means PAC1 will be active for that polling cycle only - which may very well be such a short time it never shows up on screen.

 

I did find that it could be a bit wonky if you engage PAC with P, then initiate firing the gun with Space, and then release the P while firing. Going to investigate this further.

 

EDIT: Attached track. This is the flight I made (though I didn't have the use of my pedals, so excuse the roughness) using only P and Space to try out firing guns with PAC without two-stage trigger. You can see it mostly works fine (this is when I transition between P and Space), and sometimes goes wonky (when I hold P through the Space but release it mid-way).

PAC.trk

Edited September 3, 2011 by EtherealN

[Alphamale]

Ran a quick test flight, and it works perfectly fine for me. Press-and-hold P, and PAC1 goes on fine.

 

Note, if you are scripting something, make sure it actually HOLDS the P command. Just having the program send the P key command for one polling cycle means PAC1 will be active for that polling cycle only - which may very well be such a short time it never shows up on screen.

 

I did find that it could be a bit wonky if you engage PAC with P, then initiate firing the gun with Space, and then release the P while firing. Going to investigate this further.

 

EDIT: Attached track. This is the flight I made (though I didn't have the use of my pedals, so excuse the roughness) using only P and Space to try out firing guns with PAC without two-stage trigger. You can see it mostly works fine (this is when I transition between P and Space), and sometimes goes wonky (when I hold P through the Space but release it mid-way).

 

Yeah, I got it. But now I lost Nosewheel Steering/Laser. I was messing around with the scripts. See, I have the pinky button on the FS set as a Shift function key(this was the way I used it on my old Thrustmaster F-16 stick), so I had to move what is normally the default HOTAS function for that key(nosewheel/laser) over to the throttle. I chose BTN2 which is pinky AFT. But the script that came with the CH HOTAS file that I DL'd had the pinky button defined a different way. After deciphering the syntax, I had to change Pinky Aft which is JS2.B2 to JS2.B4 then change button 2 on throttle from mapped mode to DirectX function and set it as CM Device 2 Control BTN4, if all that makes sense. Anyway, now when in A-G mode and GUNS selected with GUNPAC armed, I now get PAC1 when I depress BTN2 on throttle and when I pull trigger (BTN1 on FS), I get PAC2 which I guess allows me to strafe longitudinally and if I just pull trigger without PAC1, then I get spot density fire from the 30mm thru PAC2 alone. Is this the way it should work? I guess I'll just have to map NWS/Laser to another key on throttle. Thanks EN

 

 

Whoa!! I just checked it again and I had it backwards. With PAC2 alone, I can walk the rounds up a longitudinal path and with PAC1 engaged first and PAC2 trigger second, I get locked in spot firing.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Alphamale
mistake

[Frostiken]

If you'd bothered to check out the link I gave you, could have saved a few hours.

 

But what do I know, I only used a CH Fighterstick / ProThrottle and devised the best solution for PAC-1 / PAC-2.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Frostiken

[Alphamale]

If you'd bothered to check out the link I gave you, could have saved a few hours.

 

But what do I know, I only used a CH Fighterstick / ProThrottle and devised the best solution for PAC-1 / PAC-2.

 

No that is exactly the file that I had to alter. See that file calls for strict button assignment for HOTAS to match RL. I wanted pinky on FS for another purpose. But because the script that came with that map file had to change, so did the map file itself. An I just got these sticks and am not that familiar with the Command Mapping app. In addition, I recently got A-10C. So I'm not spending the majority of my time learning a new programming app as I should, because I'd like to play the sim more of the time. Too much stuff to learn. But I do appreciate your file and have finally modified it to suit my taste to the point that it's working well now. Actually, that link about CH Fightersticks does not tell you EVERYTHING you need to know about programming it. It makes a lot of assumptions about the knowledge level of the reader with the CH software. But I applaud you for your contribution anyway. Check six.

[Frostiken]

I think the problem is that you left the stick mapped to functions in-game. With the profile I gave you, the only stick button that should be mapped directly to the program is the NWS button. Remove JOY_BTN1, BTN2, BTN3... everything except BTN4 (the pinky button).

 

The default mappings for these commands that we want is:

 

P on keyboard = PAC-1.

SPC on keyboard = PAC-2.

JOY_BTN4 in-game = NWS/Laser fire switch.

 

Regarding these functions, nothing else should be bound to them.

 

The script does the following.

 

%DEFINE Primary_Trigger JS1.B1

%DEFINE Secondary_Trigger CMS.B12

%DEFINE Pinky_Button JS1.B4

 

JS1.B1 = trigger on fighterstick, is the primary trigger. JS1.B4 = pinky button on the fighterstick, is the NWS button. CMS.B12 is defined in the command table as "SPC".

 

Secondary_Trigger = ( Primary_Trigger AND Pinky_Button);

 

So when you press the primary, it sends 'P's and you go into PAC-1. When you press the pinky button, it sends JOY_BTN4 (and technically fires the laser and all that, but it doesn't matter), at which point the program starts sending 'P's and 'SPC's which smoothly activates PAC-2.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Frostiken

[Alphamale]

I think the problem is that you left the stick mapped to functions in-game. With the profile I gave you, the only stick button that should be mapped directly to the program is the NWS button. Remove JOY_BTN1, BTN2, BTN3... everything except BTN4 (the pinky button).

 

The default mappings for these commands that we want is:

 

P on keyboard = PAC-1.

SPC on keyboard = PAC-2.

JOY_BTN4 in-game = NWS/Laser fire switch.

 

Regarding these functions, nothing else should be bound to them.

 

The script does the following.

 

%DEFINE Primary_Trigger JS1.B1

%DEFINE Secondary_Trigger CMS.B12

%DEFINE Pinky_Button JS1.B4

 

JS1.B1 = trigger on fighterstick, is the primary trigger. JS1.B4 = pinky button on the fighterstick, is the NWS button. CMS.B12 is defined in the command table as "SPC".

 

Secondary_Trigger = ( Primary_Trigger AND Pinky_Button);

 

So when you press the primary, it sends 'P's and you go into PAC-1. When you press the pinky button, it sends JOY_BTN4 (and technically fires the laser and all that, but it doesn't matter), at which point the program starts sending 'P's and 'SPC's which smoothly activates PAC-2.

 

But that's the problem. I don't want the pinky button on JS1 as the NWS. I want to use B4 on JS1 as a SHIFT button which is what I'm used to. That's why I had to remap the NWS/Laser over to throttle. When I did this I was unaware that it conflicts with the script file. Then there's the distinction of whether a key should be mapped as a key press or have a DX function. After I sorted that out, I then saw reference to a CMS mapping. How is that enabled by the program. All this was new to me. So you see, I really wanted to keep the majority of your assignments in realistic HOTAS form, except for the pniky button and BTN 2 which I do not use for Master mode, but rather as a MODE change button based on the three lights on the two sticks. I want to use the full potential of these sticks because I have no MFCD panels (USB) that I can map functions to (i.e. I want all the functions I'll use or as many as I can get, on these two sticks). I have a Thunderseat Cockpit chair that puts me pretty far away from the keyboard. Therefore, I have to place the keyboard on my lap in between two stands for the sticks. Little by little, I'm mapping frequently used keys from the key6board to the sticks. That is why I need the SHIFT key funtions AND I'm finding I need the MODE change ability as well. I know this is not the true HOTAS setup, but it's close and until I get MFCD panels, the alterations will do for the time being. Anyway, as I said above, it is now working and I have assigned NWS/Laser to another throttle button.

If you'd like to see what I have done, I'd be more than happy to send my alterations to you and maybe then you can see what I'm doing and perhaps give me some suggestions. I feel like I'm not clear about what I've changed. Thanks Frosty

[Shootist]

Dumb Question?

 

I've been known to ask these before so one more won't hurt. Having a Logi stick I only have one trigger response. Reading that one person usually just gets the sight near the target before engaging PAC1, I was wondering if the gunpac actually locks up the target? I'm sure this doesn't happen but I'd just like to hear it from those in the know. Might just start using my P key if that's the case.

[Alphamale]

I've been known to ask these before so one more won't hurt. Having a Logi stick I only have one trigger response. Reading that one person usually just gets the sight near the target before engaging PAC1, I was wondering if the gunpac actually locks up the target? I'm sure this doesn't happen but I'd just like to hear it from those in the know. Might just start using my P key if that's the case.

 

I don't think it locks up nearest target. But what I have experienced,is that the PAC1 stage will not allow nose correction. It simply locks the plane in the precise dive angle it was at the pressing. PAC 2 alone seems to stabilize(lock) but as it's firing the 30mm, it allows me to "walk" the point of impact up as I apply joystick pullback. Applying PAC1 prior to PAC 2 seems to ignore any joystick input as you're firing. I originally thought this was supposed to be the other way around. I sometimes use the "Binocs" hack along with Active Pause and the pipper dot does NOT move to the target when PAC 1 is engaged.

[EtherealN]

It doesn't lock - it stabilizes. Essentially it tries to hold the CCIP on a single spot in the terrain (assuming good navigation data for position and terrain elevation). Obviously, this may not be optimal against fast-moving ground targets.

[Frostiken]

You can still exceed PAC-1 authority to move around with enough stick input.

[Alphamale]

You can still exceed PAC-1 authority to move around with enough stick input.

 

You're right, I just tried that now. But it really takes a yank to get it to move.