BS2: New Shkval POV shrinks everything and cuts part of the TV Screen

[ALDEGA]

Is there a way to disable the automatic "zoom-out" animation at the beginning of a mission? (which is also present in DCS-A10) I have to reset the view using the enter key every time :/

[audax]

If you have an issue with the default pilot head POV/Position as you spawn into cockpit then kindly feel free to report in a new thread in this sub-forum.

But you proved that the default pilot head position _is_ the Shkval-shrink problem.

 

@Peter: Thanks for the research!

 

Btw, I got the Shkval on my 2nd screen anyway. ;)

[159th_Viper]

But you proved that the default pilot head position _is_ the Shkval-shrink problem.

 

 

Again - the Shkval has not shrunk.

 

Utilize the 6DOF of TrackIr to get the correct picture as the Pilot would have to do in the real Kamov Cockpit. What you see modelled at present accords with reality. If you're not happy with reality then by all means edit the values as indicated by PeterP after making the necessary backups of the original files.

[PeterP]

LOL!!!

Yes ! Exactly!

Viper is right!

 

...and my hand is also shrinking and distorted when I move it in front of my head in various positions...

 

Sorry to be such a wisecracker...

... - but I have to post this placative example what is happening with the Shkval screen - so every one understands that this is no witchery or bug in BS2.

 

Edit:

Is there a way to disable the automatic "zoom-out" animation at the beginning of a mission? (which is also present in DCS-A10) I have to reset the view using the enter key every time :/

 

Sorry no Idea - already looked into this but didn't found a answer.

 

I hope this is the last post in this strange Thread...

Edited November 5, 2011 by PeterP

[dok_rp]

Thanks for the information VIPER, and thanks a million PeterP for the tweaking suggestion.

 

When I get out of my work later tonight, I'll try and figure out a good configuration for the value change you suggested and I'll post it here so that others that feel the same can change it too.

 

In my opinion, there are countless other areas that Black Shark could have been improved on and by adding this weird feature on the single most important system in that helicopter, they have gone waaay overboard.

 

If I could, I'd definitely ask for my money back. Actually I might even try. :noexpression:

 

While taking the Screenshots, I was not using TrackIR, so that squished view will basically plague everyone that does not own a TrackIR and is able to shift his view down.

 

If they their goal is ultimate realism I'll suggest that ED implement a permanent death system. You pay U$19 for one pilot license. If you eject into enemy territory, you'll have to wait for about 3 to 4 weeks until your government negotiates your return and if you die, well, shell out another 19 bucks, because that pilot is a goner. :megalol:

 

I hate this new system and I hope they also implement this image distortion into DCS-A10. Since that's their crème de la crème sim right not, maybe more people will complain and they'll go back to the way it used to be.

 

Let's hope and see.

[PeterP]

In my opinion, there are countless other areas that Black Shark could have been improved on and by adding this weird feature on the single most important system in that helicopter, they have gone waaay overboard.

 

If I could, I'd definitely ask for my money back. Actually I might even try. :noexpression:

 

While taking the Screenshots, I was not using TrackIR, so that squished view will basically plague everyone that does not own a TrackIR and is able to shift his view down.

 

If they their goal is ultimate realism I'll suggest that ED implement a permanent death system. You pay U$19 for one pilot license. If you eject into enemy territory, you'll have to wait for about 3 to 4 weeks until your government negotiates your return and if you die, well, shell out another 19 bucks, because that pilot is a goner. :megalol:

 

I hate this new system and I hope they also implement this image distortion into DCS-A10. Since that's their crème de la crème sim right not, maybe more people will complain and they'll go back to the way it used to be.

 

Let's hope and see.

My Answer:

 

 

:D

edit: Did you know that there is no virtual pilot to see any more...?!...

(running out the door very quick....)

 

edit#2: Just want to let you know that I slipped at a bloody mess on the floor while running out of the room... - on a second look I realised that it must be Vipers head that did explode...

Edited November 5, 2011 by PeterP

[159th_Viper]

....on a second look I realised that it must be Vipers head that did explode...

 

No bother - I've got spares :D

 

I would however request that all dirty forks, knives and even spoons each be dedicated their own thread lest we get our utensils in a twist - that would be a disaster!

[Speed]

There is nothing to be fixed...............

 

 

I am sure that you would agree that the screen capture is basically the same as your quoted pic above of BS1. As such, no change necessary I would have thought.

 

Viper, those are two different radar systems.

[159th_Viper]

Viper, those are two different radar systems.

 

Yeah, aware of that. Radar system deemed irrelevant for the purposes of illustration as I was primarily referring to distortion and the top bit of the Shkval that was referred to as being 'cut off' in BS2 (Red area illustrated in some pics).

 

Apologies for any unintended cofusion.

[Speed]

Yeah, aware of that. Radar system deemed irrelevant for the purposes of illustration as I was primarily referring to distortion and the top bit of the Shkval that was referred to as being 'cut off' in BS2 (Red area illustrated in some pics).

 

Apologies for any unintended cofusion.

 

Well hopefully, as soon as these forums can stay online for more than twenty minutes, someone will post side-by-side Helios Skhval exports of the exact same scene and prove your point, Viper... I still haven't seen enough to be convinced, but I do sure hope that you're right and it's just perspective.

[dok_rp]

To test it definately - prezz ALT-F1 to get cockpit instruments only - you will get Shkval without any borders, ect even without TV-curved effect. Then compare, because perhaps it is really as Viper says

 

The video was very funny. Thanks for posting it PeterP. The reason for my post is the ill-fated and ever-resurfacing "realism" discussion. No one waits 3 hours for their plane to be refueled or rearmed, no one performs 30 minute long start-up sequences, no one buys another license after their pilot is dead, hence the acrid tone from my words.

 

No ill intended on your person or on Viper's. You both have been resourceful and trustworthily obliging.

 

 

To test it definately - prezz ALT-F1 to get cockpit instruments only - you will get Shkval without any borders, ect even without TV-curved effect. Then compare, because perhaps it is really as Viper says

 

I did the test and this is what I got:

 

Black Shark 1:

 

 

Black Shark 2:

 

These are the cropped images to show that the exact same problem occurs even when using the ALT-F1 view.

 

Black Shark 1:

 

 

Black Shark 2:

 

 

I've also tested with and without TrackIR. The result is always the same: Shifting one's view does not reset the squished/stretched aspect of the object in the Shkval and even if it did, the inferior limit to your head movement would block you from doing so.

 

I also did a video illustrating it. I could post it as well.

 

This is another little test I did to show what happens in real life when you move the point of view of a camera to some strangely oblique angles: (The yellow paper strip is showing where the azimuth line on the Shkval screen is)

 

 

This was taken to simulate an object locked while the pilot looks at the Shkval at a perpendicular angle:

 

 

 

The next two shots show what happens when the view is shifted upwards to a very oblique angle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Photographically speaking, this effect is very easily noticed, but in real life it is almost imperceptible. Peripheral vision plays an incredibly important role in assisting with perspective deformation.

 

Just like PeterP anecdotally commented, our hands don't get reshaped into weird forms just because we move them farther away or closer to our eyes.

 

It's also due noting that for this level of deformation to occur, I had to take the picture at a very oblique angle, and that's not the case in real life from the pilot's perspective while seated in the cockpit.

 

Now comparing the real life findings with the game ones in an animation we have the following:

 

 

 

 

What's happening is that they've implemented one optical rule to the pilot's eye which influences the whole world around him, except for what's projected on the TV screen. That's why the objects (world) shrinks well under the Shkval azimuth line when - as the real-life illustration shows - it should have remained unaltered.

 

You can't have one optical rule governing the pilot's eye and another one to determine what happens to the TV-screen-projected image. Whatever deformation we have on the TV screen must also be applied to its whole extension and the units cannot be shrunk under the TV screen overlay. Whatever happens to the projected image must also happen to the TV screen itself.

 

Another fact to take note of is the inability to undo the perspective distortion once one lowers his head in the cockpit.

 

Those are my findings.

 

 

 

================================================

 

EDIT:

 

Something else that's also interesting to note is that the same level of optical distortion is not applied to the entire cockpit.

 

This is the little experiment I did:

 

I tried to position the camera close the oblique angle I had to put it previously to recreate the distortion level I showed in the Shkval and this is what I got:

 

Left panel. Camera perpendicular to the monitor:

 

 

 

Left panel. Camera in the position I used to recreate the distortion level exhibited in the Shkval:

 

 

 

Animation of the distortion that should be seen had the optical model used on the Shkval distortion been used in the whole world around us:

 

 

 

On a side note I'd like to explain that I did not crop the image so to illustrate how obliquely far one must look to get the same distortion level shown in the Shkval image.

 

Right panel. Camera in a perpendicular position to the monitor:

 

 

 

Right panel. Camera in the position I used to recreate the distortion level exhibited in the Shkval:

 

 

Animation of the distortion that should be seen had the optical model used on the Shkval distortion been used in the whole world around us:

 

 

 

I hope this post could show how little distorted our eyes see the world in real life.

 

Again, distorting an image photographically is a simple matter of repositioning the camera's POV, but in real life the effect is barely noticeable if noticeable at all.

 

I think the simplistic model implemented in the Shkval could use some tweaking, since it's only interfering with the Shkval image and not the whole world around us.

 

I hope this contribution comes to a valid point.

Edited November 7, 2011 by dok_rp

[XarBat]

definitely hope they change this; although it is still better than the transparency bullshit that was in BS1.

[Speed]

Well, I'd say that proves it beyond a doubt in my mind... I don't see how this distortion bug can be denied after images #3 and #4 in post #36. Face on, we still see the distortion. One could just send a PM with those image links to an ED dev, doesn't even matter if it's one of the bilingual ones, those images speak for themselves. Of course, that kind of stuff is better handled by ED tester team, they would know which devs are the right ones to query about this issue :)

Edited November 7, 2011 by Speed

[kylania]

I don't see how this distortion bug can be denied after images #3 and #4 in post #36. Face on, we still see the distortion.

 

Probably because of the image in post #19. Face on, we don't see the distortion.

 

http://i.imgur.com/H3mjE.jpg vs http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv197/ViperGAR/101130cd.jpg

 

Also note the distortion of the HUD symbology and the shadow of the wind meter on the ground [edit: and the fact that they are two completely different radar units and I'm a dumbass apparently]. There's obviously something more at work than just the schval screen display.

 

What's odd is both of those are 16:10 images. So the question is, is the distortion coming from the larger screen size or perhaps a driver/graphics chip difference or just a difference in FOV in general?

Edited November 7, 2011 by kylania
Still think it's a FOV thing. :)

[Speed]

Probably because of the image in post #19. Face on, we don't see the distortion.

 

http://i.imgur.com/H3mjE.jpg vs http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv197/ViperGAR/101130cd.jpg

 

Also note the distortion of the HUD symbology and the shadow of the wind meter on the ground. There's obviously something more at work than just the schval screen display.

 

What's odd is both of those are 16:10 images. So the question is, is the distortion coming from the larger screen size or perhaps a driver/graphics chip difference or just a difference in FOV in general?

The problem is, those are not even images of the same unit type.

 

Viper linked an image of an SA-10 SEARCH RADAR. dok_rp is using the SA-10 TRACKING RADAR. The SA-10 search radar is taller and more slender than the tracking radar.

 

So of course, if you miss the fact that the two have completely different dishes on the top of the tower, then it will look like Vipers image is not distorted because he used a taller, more slender unit.

 

You can't prove that the Skhval doesn't vertically squish objects by posting a Shkval image of a different, but similar-looking unit that is taller and more slender.

 

Also, draw your attention to the smoke stack:

Black Shark 1, FACE-ON, by dok_rp:

 

Black Shark 2, FACE-ON, by 159 Viper:

 

Black Shark 2, FACE-ON, by dok_rp:

 

As you can clearly see, the smoke stack is taller in BS1, and shorter and fatter in BS2, on both dok_rp's and Viper's screenshot. Furthermore, it demonstrates how Viper and dok_rp are BOTH using face-on shots, and as dok_rp clearly illustrates in post #36, when you compare an SA-10 tracking radar in BS1 to an SA-10 tracking radar in BS2 (rather than unfairly comparing a SA-10 tracking radar to an SA-10 SEARCH radar), then the tracking radar in BS2 looks squished vertically.

 

We don't even need to see images from Viper of a SA-10 tracking radar, as the smoke stack shape appears exactly identical, and both images were taken face-on, so there should be no perspective distortion. The evidence appears pretty solid, so it seems to me that denying it at this point amounts to:

Since we don't have a fair, scientific comparison of the same two units, then compare the smoke stacks, which I did above.

 

This parrot is definitely dead!

npjOSLCR2hE

 

Anyway... I DO disagree that this is some kind of problem so severe as to demand a refund. It's obviously subtle enough to have slipped by the test team. Demanding a refund over it seems to me to be taking it a little overboard, but to each his own I guess.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Speed

[kylania]

I have no idea what you're talking about, both images you referenced looked the same to me:

 

Edited November 7, 2011 by kylania
So proud this made it to the top of a new page... :)

[Speed]

I have no idea what you're talking about, both images you referenced looked the same to me:

 

 

Nice :D

 

They're supposed to look the same anyway :)

Edited November 7, 2011 by Speed

[sonic]

- Take A-10C TGP display code

- Copy code

- Paste code into BS 2

 

Ok shkval done.

 

Hey guys is the screen resolution of the shkval the same as an A-10 MFD?

...

 

Nevermind they'll never notice!

 

Oops! :joystick:

[Speed]

- Take A-10C TGP display code

- Copy code

- Paste code into BS 2

 

Ok shkval done.

 

Hey guys is the screen resolution of the shkval the same as an A-10 MFD?

...

 

Nevermind they'll never notice!

 

Oops! :joystick:

 

More like... "why does my Shkval have a CCD/BHOT/WHOT button?!?!"

[C6_Hellfrog]

and if you don't have A10 ? (i run out...)

 

very interresting thread !

 

rendering of shkval is detail... detail... but with some consequences...

 

has anyone a look at rendering lua scripts to figure it out ? r is it more complex ?

[Irregular programming]

I got the outside display working (I think) by tinkering in lua, but I have not yet understood how the shkval is rendered.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Irregular programming

[dok_rp]

I got a response from their Russian tech support.

 

>>This is the message I've sent:

 

Hello guys at Eagle Dynamics,

 

I have recently created a thread under the Black Shark bug report sub-forum about a problem I've noticed.

 

It appears the Shkval distorts all images projected onto the screen to a level that does not seem realistic.

 

I have run a couple o tests to verify and to compare with real-world distortion.

 

The whole thread can be viewed here ==> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=81029

 

However, the most ground-breaking post with my final conclusion and real-world comparisons can be found here ==> http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1321419&postcount=36

 

Is there anything that can be done about this matter?

 

Thank you again for your support.

 

Yours sincerely,

Dok_rp

>>This is the response I got:

 

Greetings,

Thank you for your message. We are sorry that you have such problems.

Please excuse us for a delay. We receive a lot of support requests now.

 

Thank you for your attention to our products. It's a known bug and we'll fix it but we can't tell you when it will be.

In the nearest patch will be fixed only crashes and critical bugs.

 

--

Best regards,

Eagle Dynamics support manager,

Andrei Ustinovich

 

The bug has been acknowledged and it might be fixed, however, not even they know when.

 

Now, let's just hope and see. :smartass:

[Haukka81]

I got a response from their Russian tech support.

 

>>This is the message I've sent:

 

>>This is the response I got:

 

 

 

The bug has been acknowledged and it might be fixed, however, not even they know when.

 

Now, let's just hope and see. :smartass:

 

 

Nice :thumbup:

 

 

Sad that some others just try to deny clear evidence....but it's nothing new in these forums :music_whistling:

[C6_Hellfrog]

excellent work reporting and eluding the source of problem !

nice job !

[sylkhan]

Nice :thumbup:

 

 

Sad that some others just try to deny clear evidence....but it's nothing new in these forums :music_whistling:

 

Very sad :(