BS2 enemy choppers detection capability (about artificial intellingence)

[Tozzifan]

Hi,

I'm running the first stock BS2 campaign (deployment)

 

there is a deep strike task (7th mission) in which there's to wait su24s to complete their SEAD

 

although I keep my stand-off position (10K out from the target area), there appear mi24s that seem to be perfectly aware of my flight existence, charge head on and take down my flight (unless recurring to labels, I was not even aware of exixstence, and by telling my flight to engage bandits as soon as I heard a "bandit call" did not produce anything better then my flight going defensive and being destroyed)

 

of course I know I'm in the BS2 learning process, yet I'm wondering whether enemy AI in helos has quite an edge (maybe due to a very good ophthalmologist :)), and how to be better prepared to face an unexpected incoming scrambling flight, with no labels activated,

 

thanks

[bluepilot76]

There was a good thread on here a few weeks back about this sort of thing. I think the conclusion was that it turns out the AI knows exactly where you are at all times. Even if you are out of sight behind a hill.

 

Which is a disaster as far as realism is concerned.

[Tozzifan]

There was a good thread on here a few weeks back about this sort of thing. I think the conclusion was that it turns out the AI knows exactly where you are at all times. Even if you are out of sight behind a hill.

 

Which is a disaster as far as realism is concerned.

 

:shocking: this could be even worse than I experienced with EECH, where AI enemy choppers encounters were a nightmare, for awareness and precision (yet they could avoided, staying out of line of sight) ... goodbye to tactics, in case

[Jona33]

There was a good thread on here a few weeks back about this sort of thing. I think the conclusion was that it turns out the AI knows exactly where you are at all times. Even if you are out of sight behind a hill.

 

Which is a disaster as far as realism is concerned.

 

Nope. Once they see you it's just bloody difficult to hide from them. You need to keep an eye out and listen to the bandit calls. Get a wingman to engage bandits and follow his weapons.

[159th_Viper]

Known issue that is receiving attention insofar as it relates to targeting continuing even after LOS has been obstructed.

 

That said, one must keep in mind that detection ranges are eminently realistic. It's a matter of 'Whoever sees the other first has the advantage' and as such you have to tailor your flight accordingly (Nav Lights etc etc), especially where aerial opposition is expected/has been spotted. Situational awareness is paramount - Head on a Swivel!

[slug88]

There was a good thread on here a few weeks back about this sort of thing. I think the conclusion was that it turns out the AI knows exactly where you are at all times. Even if you are out of sight behind a hill.

 

Which is a disaster as far as realism is concerned.

 

I haven't tested this in BS2, but this is definitely false as far as BS1 is concerned. In BS1 I was able to ambush and destroy a pair of AI Hinds from short range before they could hardly react. I hid in a valley as they flew past, then started following them from directly behind and below at no more than 1km. I trailed them for probably a good minute or so, and the whole time they were obviously unaware of my presence. They only reacted after I lased one of them for a cannon salvo: Both started taking evasive maneuvers, but I managed to gun them down without taking return fire. This was all part of a mission in IgorMK's excellent singleplayer campaign for BS1, the name of which escapes me at the moment.

 

Furthermore, Wags has previously posted about the degree to which airborne AI detection capability is modeled, and, IIRC, he indicated that time of day, weather conditions, and even things like the cockpit field of view and number of crew are part of the modelling.

 

However, the modelling of ground unit detection capability is, also IIRC, considerably simpler. I don't recall any official word on the matter and lack the personal experience to comment on ground AI sophistication.

[159th_Viper]

I haven't tested this in BS2, but this is definitely false as far as BS1 is concerned. In BS1 I was able to ambush and destroy a pair of AI Hinds from short range before they could hardly react. I hid in a valley as they flew past, then started following them from directly behind and below at no more than 1km. I trailed them for probably a good minute or so, and the whole time they were obviously unaware of my presence..

 

Correct and still the same in BS2. They will not know where you are unless they spot you first: This part is eminently realistic. The problem lies with the inability to lose them once you are spotted and attempt to hide/evade.

[bluepilot76]

Correct and still the same in BS2. They will not know where you are unless they spot you first: This part is eminently realistic. The problem lies with the inability to lose them once you are spotted and attempt to hide/evade.

 

This is good to know!

 

I had the impression that the AI was "all seeing and all knowing" after my wingman started calling ground targets about 20nm away before we had even taken off (although that was in the Hog)

[Jona33]

This is good to know!

 

I had the impression that the AI was "all seeing and all knowing" after my wingman started calling ground targets about 20nm away before we had even taken off (although that was in the Hog)

 

Wingmen do have super vision to be honest. Along with flying perfectly I really hate them. :D

[average_pilot]

I suspect that target detection is a lot easier when you don't have to try to see a little difference in an array of millions of pixels, instead, the presence of the target is sent to you in a kind of telepathy (that's how it must be for AI).

 

This mission was quite easy in BS1 but I had to re-try it several times in BS2 because of those hinds.

 

At the end, I hid myself in a valley that is at the left when you are looking at the target area. Then, send a wingmen to engage the mission to trigger the corresponding events. As soon as he calls "running in" tell him to return to formation. Then you will see missiles and later cannon rounds from the hinds hitting the ridge of the mountain. When you see those cannon rounds from the hinds rise the mountain and go for them. They will be to close to maneuver with ease and you and your wingmen will have the best bet to down them and survive.

[Tozzifan]

I suspect that target detection is a lot easier when you don't have to try to see a little difference in an array of millions of pixels, instead, the presence of the target is sent to you in a kind of telepathy (that's how it must be for AI).

 

This mission was quite easy in BS1 but I had to re-try it several times in BS2 because of those hinds.

 

At the end, I hid myself in a valley that is at the left when you are looking at the target area. Then, send a wingmen to engage the mission to trigger the corresponding events. As soon as he calls "running in" tell him to return to formation. Then you will see missiles and later cannon rounds from the hinds hitting the ridge of the mountain. When you see those cannon rounds from the hinds rise the mountain and go for them. They will be to close to maneuver with ease and you and your wingmen will have the best bet to down them and survive.

 

that's what I was thinking about, while reading the other posts: to execute the mission, interpreting it, without following blindly ATO orders; although in your case you adopted a trick (that's a revised kind of drag maneuver :D from air combat doctrine), maybe another approach to the target valley is worth a try

[Bushmanni]

The other problem in detection logic besides the inability to hide from AI after being spotted is the detection speed and probability. Currently the target is spotted instantly when the requirements for seeing the target have been fulfilled. While these rules govern all the important factors the basic assumption behind this logic is unrealistic. For a human it takes time to scan the environment and you might not spot the target even if you happen to almost look at it. It's also stupid that lesser skilled AI can't see and engage targets clearly visible to human player because they are beyond low skilled AIs reduced vision range even if you datalink the target to them so they can slew their Shkval to it.

 

As everybody knows the vision is very good at the center of the FOV (field of view) and poor at the edges. This leads to the requirement to scan the area to be searched with the center of the FOV to be able to spot less visible targets. If a big moving abject appeared at the edge of FOV you could spot it besides looking 80 degrees off. So you can spot big high contrast moving targets with larger sector of your FOV than small camouflaged non-moving ones that need to be looked at right into them in order to have even a chance of spotting the target. Also if a human looks at the hard to spot target longer his chances of spotting the target increase, ie. if you scan slower your chances of spotting targets increase.

 

The previously described factors lead to possibility of spotting a hard to see target pretty much instantly if you just happen to look exactly to the right direction when the target appears or not to see the target at all until it's very close as you have had your attention to somewhere else. These extreme examples are rare but happen sometimes but usually you see the target after some time when your scan sweeps over the target. The current model doesn't support this kind of behavior. I recently got Steel Beasts that models this and it gives a very human like feel to the AI.

 

There should be at least some rudimentary randomization to the spotting time and every skill level AI should see the same distance but the lesser skilled AIs should have lower chances of spotting the targets at farther distances. But if they happen to look at the direction of the target they could still see it, ie. if they receive a datalink target or someone gives a bandit call. It would be great if also the scanning behavior could be modeled and tunnel vision when attacking or defending.

[Tozzifan]

Wingmen do have super vision to be honest. Along with flying perfectly I really hate them. :D

 

let me dissent a little about it :):

in the mission I mentioned in this thread (four times unsuccessfully flown so far):

1 all flight of three wingmen charged at bandits and all went down (me included)

2 one of my flight crashed when climbing the mountain slope before the initial attack point (hinds did the rest)

3 two crashed while I was trying to set an ambush in hover for the same "haunting" Hinds, along a slope, in the valley left from the initial point

3 the surviving one charged at target area, instead of using stand-off tactics, and ... ejected

4 wing 3 and 4 collided enroute while changing formation from echelon to trail, with no obtacles around

 

this is of course maybe due also to my inexperience with the sim behaviour and commands, yet I'm "slightly" beginning to figure out why, although at rookie level, I've already been contacted by other BS pilots, to fly with them in multiplayer: less wingmen there, nonetheless I can't do worse than friendly AI , at least in A2G missions

 

it looks like I've discovered, not only detection issues, but also a AI tendency to carelessly charge at commanded targets ....

Edited January 24, 2012 by Tozzifan