Multiple LGB, same pass?

[OutOnTheOP]

I know I've seen it done before: two LGBs are dropped, several seconds apart, with a first, nearer target lased until impact of the first weapon, then a quick shift of the TGP lazing until impact of the second.

 

I am aware the videos I have seen are almost certainly from F-15E or other multiseat aircraft (*edit* likely F-111 as well), where the WSO can concentrate all his effort on this task.

 

My question: is such a 2-LGB pass even possible in the A-10? For kicks and giggles I gave it a try on the "weapons training" mission, dropping (well, attempting to) on the near and far end of the two tank columns at the "Tanks" waypoint. I used markpoints as per multiple JDAM deliveries.

 

From 20K AGL, even with such significant lateral seperation (it's got to be at least a good quarter mile between the far ends of the two columns) I found it virtually impossible to drop the first weapon, shift my SOI to the second markpoint, and line up fast enough to get the second weapon away. Usually by the time I had called up the second markpoint, the CCRP was already at -3 to -5; I was behind the release timer by quite a bit.

 

Has anyone been able to accomplish this feat? How?

[BlueRidgeDx]

Like dropping multiple JDAMs per pass, it can be done, it's just not very realistic (for an A-10).

 

Nonetheless, you don't need to shift your SPI before releasing the next weapon. Just release two weapons with sufficient spacing using a CCIP release...you'll need about 10 seconds between weapon TTIs. Wait until the first weapon impacts, then shift your spot.

 

Alternatively, if you really want to use CCRP, make two different GBU-12 profiles. Set the first one's Solution to "BAL", make the second one "ORP". These settings change where the release point is; the "ballistic" release point is farther from the target than "optimal". Doing this will allow you to maximize the time and distance between the two weapons.

 

Next, make two marks (as you already did), make the HUD SOI, use DMS to choose the first (BAL) profile, pickle on the closest mark first, DMS UP to change to the second mark, DMS RIGHT to change to the second LGB profile, and pickle on the second mark.

 

There are practical limitations to making this work, though. The two targets need to be relatively close to one another - several hundred feet at most - or the shifted spot will be outside the second bomb's FOV. You can make things easier on yourself by releasing from as high an altitude as possible, which gives a larger release envelope and a greater bomb impact angle.

[Blaze1]

I'm not completely positive about this, but I think in reality two LGBs would probably be dropped with differing laser codes, otherwise the second bomb would try to guide to the laser spot of the first and this might cause it to run out of energy before reaching its target.

[BlueRidgeDx]

Yep, thats certainly the ideal way to do it, but the OP was asking for a way to do it single-ship.

 

From a level delivery, the bomb isn't able to see the spot during the entire TOF. It only picks it up as the bomb begins to pitch down along it's ballistic path. So with sufficient distance between releases, it's possible to accomplish.

 

It's also possible, with sufficient TOF available, to "drag" the laser spot to the new target while the bomb guides on it. You just have to be careful not to move so fast that the spot moves outside the seeker's FOV.

 

There's film elsewhere of an F-15E shifting the spot multiple times during the weapon TOF because each time they settled on a DMPI, someone else's bombs shacked the target.

 

Again, not ideal, but certainly within the realm of possibility.

[OutOnTheOP]

so the verdict appears to be "possible, but shouldn't be part of the attack plan". About what I figured; it would just be SO much easier if the DSMS would allow you to actually set up ripple release options for LGBs. Estimate ground distance between targets, set ripple spacing, hit the pickle once, and then shift the TGP after the first impact.... would be SO much easier...

 

Come to think of it, the videos I have MAY have in fact been conducted by 2-3 aircraft, with the two subsequent impacts released by seperate aircraft, guided by one of the two or a third, spotter aircraft. That would certainly allow more flexibility in the timing between impacts...

[snak]

Heres a thought. I wonder is it possible to dropping 2 lgbs you lase one and your buddy/wingman lases the other similtaneously

[TurboHog]

Heres a thought. I wonder is it possible to dropping 2 lgbs you lase one and your buddy/wingman lases the other similtaneously

 

Mhhh I think this should be possible if you use two laser codes. Your own laser code for bomb 1 and another lasercode for bomb 2. Wingmen then uses the lasercode that matches the code for bomb 2. Then you drop the LGB's in CCRP on the two markpoints/SPI's and start lasing while your wingman starts lasing the other object.

 

But I don't know if this kind of buddylasing is possible in-game or if it is realistic. And if it works: I assume you can use the LSS/LST function as well then if you lase an object with code x while your wingman searches for code x?

 

Would be fun when your playing as an AFAC.

[Frostiken]

Wouldn't buddy-bombing in this manner require someone crawling out along the wing and dialing a new laser code into the LGB seeker?

[Jona33]

Wouldn't buddy-bombing in this manner require someone crawling out along the wing and dialing a new laser code into the LGB seeker?

 

It's possible in the game. Are you saying you can't do it in RL?

[Frostiken]

I can't find any pictures of it, but the laser codes for PAVEWAY II are dialed into the seeker head on the ground. Pilots set them before they fly.

 

Come to think of it, the PAVEWAY IIs don't even plug into the jet in any way. The release is all lanyards - one to pop the tail open, one to turn the seeker head on.

 

EDIT: Here's the best I can come up with. The three dimples on the side of the fat part of the seeker head are the laser code settings. You can see the lanyard that turns power on to the seeker once it's dropped.

 

Edited January 22, 2012 by Frostiken

[Jona33]

I can't find any pictures of it, but the laser codes for PAVEWAY II are dialed into the seeker head on the ground. Pilots set them before they fly.

 

Ok thanks. Must just be like the CBU inventory thing since we don't have the ground crew. Are they all given different codes?

[Frostiken]

Ok thanks. Must just be like the CBU inventory thing since we don't have the ground crew. Are they all given different codes?

 

They're given unique codes on a per-aircraft basis, but on the individual aircraft, no, they're all the same, simply because having LGBs set to different laser codes would create an extremely dangerous situation, especially to ground forces. While measures are taken to ensure that friendlies aren't going to be put in danger by bomb drops in case something goes wrong, you would still have a very expensive Mk82 now free-falling with zero guidance and who the **** knows where that's going to land... all because the WSO dropped the wrong bomb or forgot to change his laser code.

 

It would definitely make sense that you can set this via DSMS given our limitations for exactly what you mentioned. I completely forgot about the CBU settings, but you're right, they're roughly the same thing - the HOF and all that are set on the ground, not in the cockpit.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Frostiken

[OutOnTheOP]

As a side question, does anyone know if the new GBU-54 LJDAMs can have their laser code programmed in flight? I mean... given that they're JDAM munitions, they MUST have a data cable connection to the host aircraft....

[Eddie]

Not sure about laser codes specifically, but I assume the LJDAM has at least the same capabilities as the PWIV, in which case just about every parameter for the weapons flight and fusing can be set in flight from the cockpit.

 

IRL you can do a lot more with JDAM and similar weapons than you can in the sim.

[Frostiken]

As a side question, does anyone know if the new GBU-54 LJDAMs can have their laser code programmed in flight? I mean... given that they're JDAM munitions, they MUST have a data cable connection to the host aircraft....

 

Couldn't tell you, I've never seen one IRL.

 

I will say it's extremely unlikely though, due to the simple fact that removing the manual laser coding would make the weapon unable to be backwards-compatible without an avionics operational flight program rewrite to support it. If you leave the laser coding to be manually done and assuming the guidance package is basically the same as in the regular JDAM, then any aircraft that can carry a targeting pod and drop GBU-38s would automatically be able to carry GBU-54's without any further changes.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Frostiken

[Blaze1]

Yep, thats certainly the ideal way to do it, but the OP was asking for a way to do it single-ship.

 

From a level delivery, the bomb isn't able to see the spot during the entire TOF. It only picks it up as the bomb begins to pitch down along it's ballistic path. So with sufficient distance between releases, it's possible to accomplish.

 

It's also possible, with sufficient TOF available, to "drag" the laser spot to the new target while the bomb guides on it. You just have to be careful not to move so fast that the spot moves outside the seeker's FOV.

That seems plausible, as you mention care must be taken with bomb spacing and timing. :thumbup:

 

There's film elsewhere of an F-15E shifting the spot multiple times during the weapon TOF because each time they settled on a DMPI, someone else's bombs shacked the target.

 

Again, not ideal, but certainly within the realm of possibility.

If you find a link for that video let me know :).

 

Cheers

[Blaze1]

Mhhh I think this should be possible if you use two laser codes. Your own laser code for bomb 1 and another lasercode for bomb 2. Wingmen then uses the lasercode that matches the code for bomb 2. Then you drop the LGB's in CCRP on the two markpoints/SPI's and start lasing while your wingman starts lasing the other object.

 

But I don't know if this kind of buddylasing is possible in-game or if it is realistic. And if it works: I assume you can use the LSS/LST function as well then if you lase an object with code x while your wingman searches for code x?

 

Would be fun when your playing as an AFAC.

A tactic that may be used in real life, is to have two aircraft each using two different laser codes. LGBs on one aircraft are programmed to one set while the bombs on the other aircraft will receive the next set. Both aircraft release a bomb with a suitable interval between them. The first bomb picks up the initial laser code and guides to its target, as it hits the laser code is changed to that of the second bomb, which is than able to guide to the second target.

[Frostiken]

Hey, I asked our pilots today - turns out I was both wrong and right.

 

The GBU-54 does have the manual code dials on the side just like the PAVEWAY II packages, but it can also have the laser coding changed from the cockpit - of F-15Es, at least. If the PAVEWAY package has a fault, the bomb will default to the laser code dialed in to the side, so if push comes to shove, it will function like a very expensive GBU-12 if it has to.

[Migow]

Not sure about laser codes specifically, but I assume the LJDAM has at least the same capabilities as the PWIV, in which case just about every parameter for the weapons flight and fusing can be set in flight from the cockpit.

 

IRL you can do a lot more with JDAM and similar weapons than you can in the sim.

hi you mean datalink for moving target:)?i want to know:smartass:

[sobek]

IRL you can do a lot more with JDAM and similar weapons than you can in the sim.

 

Can the A-10 interface with these capabilities?

 

I remember reading that the target entry direction parameters (e.g.) are only available in PB mode, which the A-10 can not use. Is this incorrect?

[Speed]

Isn't there a manual mode (perhaps its a certain mode of CCIP) where you can just release a bomb whenever you press the pickle button? I know that occasionally, I have screwed up and done this, but what if one did it on purpose in order to assist in doing multiple LGBs per pass? Perhaps, flying high and slow, start with a ballistic CCRP profile. At 10 secs to calculated CCRP release, switch over to a manual release, and count to 5 before pickling. Wait 10 seconds, then pickle again. So you place the two bombs 10 seconds apart, +5 and -5 seconds from the ballistic solution. At an altitude of >20k feet, and especially if you are a little on the slow side, I would think that both bombs would have no problem spotting the laser and maneuvering to the spot, since they are falling nearly straight down anyway.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Speed

[BlueRidgeDx]

Yes, it can. But there are a bunch of JDAM functions that are (purposely) not simulated. The cockpit-adjustable fuze settings associated with the FMU-152 JPF are approximated by the editable DSMS inventory.

[Speed]

Yes, it can. But there are a bunch of JDAM functions that are (purposely) not simulated. The cockpit-adjustable fuze settings associated with the FMU-152 JPF are approximated by the editable DSMS inventory.

 

I'd love to have the LJDAM or being able to air burst these suckers, but at the same time, I'm also just happy to have what we have. You have no idea (or perhaps you do...) how many years we had to put up with having no JDAMs in Falcon 4, while being feed lines of BS about how JDAMs were too highly classified to be modeled in any form at all. In some versions of Falcon, we had "JDAMs", but they worked exactly the same as Mavericks (and hence, you'd never see me carrying those 2000 lb bull@?*! bombs).

[Frostiken]

hi you mean datalink for moving target:)?i want to know:smartass:

 

No. Our F-15Es (and if an F-15E can't do it with a bomb, nobody can) carry GBU-12s in Afghanistan specifically because JDAMs cannot hit moving targets with any serious reliability. If someone's driving a truck around on a road, you just point your laser at them and the bomb will follow it and hit them every time. JDAMs, being inertial, have to know where they're going to hit before they even release and that's pretty much all there is to it.

 

One thing specifically what BlueRidge is referring to is the ability to air-burst JDAMs. This isn't modeled in the sim because the damage system isn't robust enough to simulate the effects of an air-burst bomb. As near I can tell the damage is the same as in any old FPS game, so an air-burst bomb would actually be much less effective. Hopefully some day this will change and we can at least get some rudimentary simulation of earth penetration and shockwave bounce.

 

The current problem we have in Afghanistan is that PAVEWAY IIs cannot air-burst. JDAMs cannot hit moving targets. Then someone thought 'What if we stuck a PAVEWAY IIs nose on the front of a JDAM...?' and the GBU-54 was born :D

Edited January 25, 2012 by Frostiken

[Eddie]

....

The current problem we have in Afghanistan is that PAVEWAY IIs cannot air-burst. JDAMs cannot hit moving targets. Then someone thought 'What if we stuck a PAVEWAY IIs nose on the front of a JDAM...?' and the GBU-54 was born :D

 

Of course, you could have just bought Paveway IV (and upgrade all you PWII and III kits with GPS capability as well :D) like we did and have the capability now rather than several years down the line.

 

;)