Tell the difference between an IR Missile and a Radar Missile?

[xXSparkHorizonXx]

I am wondering if there is a way to tell if a SAM missile launched at you is IR guided or RADAR guided? Sorry if this has been asked before, I had a look around and couldn't see anything on it.

 

It would be good to know the missile type since then I could activate either chaff or flares depending on the missile and not waste them.

 

Also, is there a difference in the way the two different types of missiles act? I heard that the RADAR guided missiles, instead of following you, aim to meet you at where you are going to be. Is this the same or different for IR guided missiles? I also heard that IR missile threats are pretty rare, is that true? In that case wouldn't you normally prefer chaff over flares?

 

Cheers.

Edited April 17, 2012 by xXSparkHorizonXx

[Kaiza]

You will normally get a radar lock on your RWR prior to launch if it is RADAR guided. However, if you have your CMSP in SEMI or AUTO, then the CMS will automatically choose the best countermeasures for the encountered threat, so you dont have to worry about it. In SEMI you only then need to start and stop the program, in AUTO you dont do anything at all (however your countermeasures will disappear very quickly!)

Edited April 17, 2012 by Kaiza

[EtherealN]

Well, generally speaking, a radar-guided missile will have you seeing something that's guiding the missile. An IR missile will not (obviously).

 

IR-guided missiles do not "follow" you. What they do is maneuver to keep you stationary in their seeker. Only if you are flying directly away from them does this have them follow you. (Think of the old "is that traing going to get to the crossing at the same time as I am" thing - if the train appears to be stationary in your field of view, you better stop ahead of the train crossing.)

 

Generally speaking, I would suggesting keeping the CMS in semi or auto, as Kaiza suggests. Flipping between modes at a time when a missile is already headed for you is just silly - the missile might impact you within a second or two. If you are out of countermeasures, fly home and stock up, or navigate in such a way as to eliminate the one you're out of - for example, if you're lobbing bombs and missiles from angels 30, anything launched at you from the ground is unlikely to be IR. Though I'd still suggest flying home to re-stock. It's always better to abort than take a risk and pay for it with your life, unless you really REALLY need to be there right now to save the lives of your countrymen. But remember: you can't save anyone if you're dead.

[xXSparkHorizonXx]

Ah, I see. So SEMI mode automatically chooses the correct countermeasure.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[159th_Viper]

I am wondering if there is a way to tell if a SAM missile launched at you is IR guided or RADAR guided?

 

Trust your ALR-69(V) - will tell you all you need to know :)

 

Radar-guided systems will always show on the display: For the relevant codes, have a look in the manual/checklists. In the following example you would have started just being searched for by a Snow Drift Radar (SD on the RWR). It would have had a half-circle, indicating hemisphere, as well as having being enclosed in a diamond, indicating primary threat. In a multi-threat environment where your RWR is cluttered with multiple threats, ALWAYS pay attention to your primary threat indicator as your primary threat is not necessarily that one closest to you. Once the Snow Drift started tracking you, the SD symbol would have had a circle drawn around it, indicating tracking - time to crawl back to where you came from if you are not looking for a fight :D

 

If you press the engagement, you will be launched upon. Note now how the primary threat (indicated by the diamond enclosing the system code (11)) is now also surrounded by a flashing circle (indicating missile launch). Also note that the RWR has picked up two launches, indicative of the 2 threat symbols showing you that there are 2 SA-11 missiles inbound - too late for the piddle-pack I'm afraid.......

 

 

Same goes for other systems. In the next illustration your secondary threat is the Tor SAM system, indicated by the 15 symbol on your RWR. You know he has launched a missile because of the new primary threat code on the RWR (M surrounded by a diamond surrounded by a flashing circle):

 

 

With Infra-Red systems you are however in trouble: You will only get the primary threat indication of a missile launch on the RWR display as the M symbol surrounded by the circle, indicating launch has already taken place. Just keep in mind that there is a certain 'lag' time from actual launch until when you get the warning in-cockpit, so dependant on system, said warning might already be too late:

 

Edited April 17, 2012 by 159th_Viper
Clarification

[EtherealN]

Also note that seeing a launch warning for an IR system does not necessarily mean that it is YOU that is launched upon. The system knows something has launched, but not what it's target is. (In a passive system like IR, there's no real way it could know.) This is part reason why it's good to call your Rifles when playing online. No fun if you cause your wingmen to panic every time you launch a weapon on the enemy... :)

[Eddie]

I am wondering if there is a way to tell if a SAM missile launched at you is IR guided or RADAR guided?

 

The indications provided on the IP-1310 display from the RWR and MWS are the only in cockpit indications you'll get from which you can deduce the threat type. However it can only provide you with limited information.

 

The RWR will be able to identify the type of system that is/is attempting to engage you, but all the MWS can do is tell you there is a missle in the air and where it is in relation to your aircraft. It's up to you to decide on the type of threat the MWS is indicating based on other factors such as any other indications from the RWR, known threats from the briefing/you've spotted yourself or friendly air or ground forces engaging other targets.

 

In summary, if the RWR produces and indication with type, then you know the system type already so act accordingly. For MWS indications a bit of pilot assement is required, so make sure you read the briefing and take note of any known threats and their locations so you're not suprised and be sure to build up and maintain a high level of situational awareness. In addition, be sure to read up on all the systems featured in the sim. Start by reading up on a system in the sim's encylopeadia and then head off to google and read up on the systems capabilities (the in sim encylopeadia only has very limited information). Once you learn and understand the threats you'll be far better placed to deal with them.

 

It would be good to know the missile type since then I could activate either chaff or flares depending on the missile and not waste them.

 

Indeed, but if you are in any doubt as to the system type, employ a mix program. It's far, far better to have to RTB due to having expended all your consumable countermeasures than find yourself spiraling to the ground in flames after being hit while trying to "conserve" consumables.

 

Remember: Flares and chaff bundles in the dispensers are worthless after you've been hit. Don't be scared to use them.

 

Also, is there a difference in the way the two different types of missiles act? I heard that the RADAR guided missiles, instead of following you, aim to meet you at where you are going to be. Is this the same or different for IR guided missiles?

 

Yes and no. Missiles generally fly either lead persuit (using proportional guidance) or pure persuit (essentially following the target) , there are IR and RADAR guided missiles that fly each type of intercept.

 

I also heard that IR missile threats are pretty rare, is that true? In that case wouldn't you normally prefer chaff over flares?

 

Not at all. In fact IR guided systems are by far the most numerous on the battlefield. Even a long range RADAR SAM site such as SA-10 or SA-11 will have a large number of short range IR guided systems protecting it.

 

NB: In DCS some mission designers will build realistic SAM sites with several layers of defence, others won't and will just place one or two launchers with no supporting assets.

[xXSparkHorizonXx]

Ah, I see. I guess I shouldn't believe EVERY random youtube comment I see (IR guided missile threats are rare) or I'd probably be packing next to no flares and get blown out of the sky rather quickly, heh.

 

Thanks for the help. I have been playing this game for a while now, and there is always more to learn. I appreciate the info, since I don't very much like the idea of being blown out of the sky. :)

 

Cheers.

Edited April 17, 2012 by xXSparkHorizonXx

[muamshai]

Ah, I see. I guess I shouldn't believe EVERY random youtube comment I see (IR guided missile threats are rare) or I'd probably be packing next to no flares and get blown out of the sky rather quickly, heh.

 

Youtube comments are for chuckle or for a smirk at the most. Here is a quote from a source (would someone verify the reliability of this source?)

 

According to the USAF, 90% of all US air combat losses for the last 25 years can be attributed to infrared missiles, such as MANPADS.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/96M-to-DS2-for-LAIRCM-Aircraft-Defense-System-Support-06289/

[Eddie]

Youtube comments are for chuckle or for a smirk at the most. Here is a quote from a source (would someone verify the reliability of this source?)

 

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/96M-to-DS2-for-LAIRCM-Aircraft-Defense-System-Support-06289/

 

As far as internet sources go, it's as reliable as they can be. It references a USAF article.

 

Even if the quoted number isn't 100% accurate, it's certainly true that the vast majority of SAM kills (and A/A missile kills for that matter) have been by IR systems.

 

While RADAR systems are potentially more lethal, they are also far less numerous. When you consider a Russian mechanised infantry battalion will have around 35 MANPADS, 6 SA-13, 6 SA-19 and 8 SA-15 available to it when you add the battalions own defence assets and the brigade level air defence battalion. It becomes clear how "easy" most DCS missions are compared to reality.