50 cal damage modeling

[STRIKER]

After flying the P-51 I really am at a loss. It seems to be a really well done aircraft in pretty much all aspects except the 50 Cal damage modeling.

 

As some of you know I'm a flight engineer in the USAF and I'm still qualified on the GAU-18/21 (50 Cal). I have over 250 combat hours with the weapon in Iraq and Afghanistan and I consider myself pretty familiar with everything in regards with that gun and the true damage just one can do.

 

After initially flying DCS Mustang I transitioned into combat with it. I started out on the quick start mission of the Mustangs going head to head. As I came around my opponent I opened fire and scored many direct hits. To my surprise and countless hits he remained flying with just a little fuel streaming out. I continued to fire and again each time after scoring direct hits and was not pleased to see him still flying, especially since I just winchester'd the gun and it just doesn't seem right. After trying combat with many other aircraft in DCS including helo's I came under the same problem. Truthfully if I was shooting a 22 gauge at the target I could see it but not with the Ma Deuce.

 

After flying and firing the gun in anger across the world and at home in the MH-53 and now in the CV-22 Osprey with just one .50 cal I'm still amazed how much damage this baby can dish out. The USAF still teaches many of the basic concepts aerial gunners were taught back in WWII as it still applies to my job today. Now you put 6 of those babies up on the wing of a P-51 and as the video will show you below you will not have to press that trigger nearly as long as we do in DCS to completely obliterate your target.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YlxBRLEySo

 

So my request to the Developer is this; please increase the 50 cal damage/ballistics to its accurate and more powerful setting.

 

Regards,

[EtherealN]

Everything depends.

 

IU3yoFZ5uvk

 

Also note that damage model is still WIP.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=87556

[flightace37]

Seems to be a fundamental theme across all flight sims where the .50 cal is modeled. Take your pick: the various aircraft in IL-2, Targetware, etc. The only one I've seen that modeled the .50s with high damage was Warbirds, but then a lot of people complained that they were too strong, and flew like "lasers". It ends up being a very subjective discussion.

 

From what I've seen, most sims model the .50 shooting either Ball or AP ammo, or a combination of the two. This is correct for many of the nations that used this caliber in WW2, but not the USA (among others). We loaded beltings that contained mixes of Ball, AP, HE, and incendiary rounds, as well as APHEI ammunition and tracers. There's a huge difference in the damage that aircraft-mounted .50s can do with this simple change. Of course, there were probably situations and periods where we were only shooting ball or AP, and I bet the pilots noticed this just as much as we do in sims.

 

Now, as far as my experience in DCS: P-51 goes, there's quite a bit of variation in weapons capability. I've had fights where it took my entire belt to shoot down one plane, and others where a tap of the trigger sawed a wing right off, or set the engine on fire instantly.

 

I do have a sneaking suspicion that ED hasn't added the more specialized rounds into the belt yet. If that's still to be implemented, I think we'll see a big improvement in the consistency of our 6 M2s if/when they do. I also hope they model the explosive visual effect when an HE round goes off. It's really impressive.

 

Note: There are also at least two major versions of the aircraft-mounted .50, one which saw service during WW2 (the M2) developing 800 rounds/minute, and one which entered service in 1947 (the M3), developing 1200 rounds/minute.

[XarBat]

So far, all the weapons seem less damaging than they were before, either that or the P-51D's armor exceeds the other two DCS aircraft. One time I had Zu-23 rounds hit the nose of the aircraft when I was going over 300mph and the rounds were fired from less than a mile away, and there was only cosmetic damage if that. This will probably change when engine/oil/coolant pressure/temperature gets added.

[hitman]

I used to fire M2's at old T-60 tanks back when I was in the Corps, and those tanks got shredded up. You cant tell me a .50 cal round wont penetrate or destroy anything. Its still in beta state, I get it, but dont even say the damage is realistic at this moment. Sorry if I sound condescending, but you would know if you ever actually shot the Ma Deuce.

[EtherealN]

You cant tell me a .50 cal round wont penetrate or destroy anything.

 

No-one has said that.

 

But the question is always WHAT they penetrate or shred. A classic example from WW2 in that regard was the Hurricane where you could hit large parts of it almost as much as you want - all you'd do is put a hole in two sheets of fabric (unless you were extremely lucky and managed to snap one of the couple wires that was running through there).

 

But again, as said: damage model is WIP, and several other components are also WIP.

[hitman]

Yeah that sounds right...and having flown online for the first time this afternoon, they shoot down aircraft just fine.

 

NOW...there are more than one type of .50 cal round, is just the ball ammo going to be modelled?

 

These are the ammo types:

 

• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, High Pressure Test, M1
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Incendiary, M1 (blue tip)
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Tracer, M1 (red, maroon, or orange tip)
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, M2
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, Armor Piercing, M2 (black tip)
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, Armor Piercing Incendiary, M8 (aluminum tip)
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Tracer M10 (red, maroon, or orange tip)
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Tracer; M17 (red, maroon, or orange tip)
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, Armor Piercing Incendiary-Tracer, M20 (red ring/aluminum tip)
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Incendiary, M23 (blue tip)
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, M33
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, Spotter-Tracer, M48A1
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, Spotter-Tracer, M48A2
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, Plastic Practice, M858
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Tracer, Plastic Practice, M860
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Saboted Light Armor Penetrator (SLAP), M903 (plastic sleeve on projectile)
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Saboted Light Armor Penetrator-Tracer (SLAP-T), M962
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, Practice, T249E2
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, High Pressure Test, T251
  
• Cartridge, Caliber .50: Armor Piercing Incendiary (API), MK 211 MOD 0
  

[ErichVon]

After flying the P-51 I really am at a loss. It seems to be a really well done aircraft in pretty much all aspects except the 50 Cal damage modeling.

 

As some of you know I'm a flight engineer in the USAF and I'm still qualified on the GAU-18/21 (50 Cal). I have over 250 combat hours with the weapon in Iraq and Afghanistan and I consider myself pretty familiar with everything in regards with that gun and the true damage just one can do.

 

After initially flying DCS Mustang I transitioned into combat with it. I started out on the quick start mission of the Mustangs going head to head. As I came around my opponent I opened fire and scored many direct hits. To my surprise and countless hits he remained flying with just a little fuel streaming out. I continued to fire and again each time after scoring direct hits and was not pleased to see him still flying, especially since I just winchester'd the gun and it just doesn't seem right. After trying combat with many other aircraft in DCS including helo's I came under the same problem. Truthfully if I was shooting a 22 gauge at the target I could see it but not with the Ma Deuce.

 

After flying and firing the gun in anger across the world and at home in the MH-53 and now in the CV-22 Osprey with just one .50 cal I'm still amazed how much damage this baby can dish out. The USAF still teaches many of the basic concepts aerial gunners were taught back in WWII as it still applies to my job today. Now you put 6 of those babies up on the wing of a P-51 and as the video will show you below you will not have to press that trigger nearly as long as we do in DCS to completely obliterate your target.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YlxBRLEySo

 

So my request to the Developer is this; please increase the 50 cal damage/ballistics to its accurate and more powerful setting.

 

Regards,

 

In close quarters, in combat as a grunt, I love the 1911, .45 cal pistol. That thing will knock a guy down backwards at a full charge with all his gear on his back. Actually in really close quarters I like the entrenching tool---its a great weapon.

 

I do not think the .50 cal machine guns in the beta have much hitting power.

 

Imagine getting hit by a .50 cal flintlock musket ball.

 

I sure killed that cargo plane, last night, one short burst, set at 600 feet, I guesstamated the wingspan was 70 feet.

Edited May 6, 2012 by ErichVon

[G-Lock91]

We are SO impatient when we get something of pure awesomeness!! It's in beta right now for cryin out loud!

[Slayer]

There's definitely no incendiary rounds or there would be more fires and exploding on dogfight servers.

[effte]

We are SO impatient when we get something of pure awesomeness!! It's in beta right now for cryin out loud!

 

And what is the point of a beta?

 

Yes. To find potential issues.

 

For that to happen, pointing out perceived flaws is kinda important. If you don't, a beta is pointless.

[EtherealN]

Yes effte, but there is this: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=87556

 

Saying "hey, this is wrong" when something isn't even implemented (or major parts of it still aren't implemented) is a bit obvious, no? :) It's not like I can bring that to a programmer and say it's a "bug", because it isn't a "bug". It's a case of that programmer not being done yet. ;)

 

As a further note regarding the video linked in the OP; I see a lot of A6M receiving bullets there. Notable with that aircraft is, as many are aware, that it has absolutely zero armor plating, no self-sealing tanks, etcetera. None of that sexy funs stuff that many other fighters (like the P-51D) had. :) If you recall, the Japanese made that design decision specifically to keep weight down, which paid off in the early stages of the Pacific war through good maneuverability compared to their american opponents. But once american planes got better they no longer had that distinct advantage, and to top it all off they were now also considerably less durable than the american planes.

Edited May 7, 2012 by EtherealN

[Yo-Yo]

There are no damages yet for engine, radiators, etc.

If you want to see real .50 damages for human plane let AI shoot at your plane and the take a look at the damage log in debriething window.

 

Once you have hits in a wing you can find one or more guns unfunctional, for example.

[EtherealN]

Once you have hits in a wing you can find one or more guns unfunctional, for example.

 

Which is soooo annoying. :D

I once had a dogfight on a public server, and got hit pretty badly but managed to reverse the situation and get on the offensive. And then I noticed I only had a single MG left functional... Many tears were shed. :P

[G-Lock91]

And what is the point of a beta?

 

Yes. To find potential issues.

 

For that to happen, pointing out perceived flaws is kinda important. If you don't, a beta is pointless.

 

Absolutely, but a quick read of what is being worked on already goes a long way :)

[XarBat]

The damage seems to be ok for the ground units. Maybe the armor on some of the aircraft is higher than it was before. But I do like how the damage to the player aircraft (P-51) seems to be more of the fluid leak, wire damage variety instead of having wings or very large pieces of the aircraft just fall off. I remember in the A-10C betas when the engines would just fall off of the plane.

[effte]

Mr. Wood Nymph,

point taken, but I suggest moving that particular sticky up one level. Unless you've had a general question type bug to report, chances are you've never seen it. I hadn't, and still wouldn't have had I followed my mother's advice not to click on links provided by strange men online... :D

[EtherealN]

I'll consider integrating it (or a link to it) in the FAQ. :)

[effte]

I think the spelling of 'hinge moments' is also WIP... O:)

 

That particular point explains the lack of proper trim and adds hope of a future force-based control model! I've been thinking to myself that ED should put together exactly that document

Open beta without an open version of the bug tracker causes unnecessary grief for devs and testers/users alike. And look, it's been hidden there all along!

[EtherealN]

Open bug tracker causes other nightmares, though.

 

Thanks for spotting the typo, though. :)

[blackbaron]

Which is soooo annoying. :D

I once had a dogfight on a public server, and got hit pretty badly but managed to reverse the situation and get on the offensive. And then I noticed I only had a single MG left functional... Many tears were shed. :P

 

Don't you just hate that? lol "how ya like that, gotcha now sucker" *pulls trigger and 1 gun fires* "lots of censored words" lol :joystick:

[blackbaron]

also quick question on gun jams... I noticed I fired my guns under a high G load and they jammed, is that supposed to happen?

[hitman]

Did you black out?

[effte]

Open bug tracker causes other nightmares, though.

 

I know. That's why I wrote "a version of". Such a version would e g be a document outlining the known shortcomings/WIP. :)

[blackbaron]

Did you black out?

 

yes